|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,419 Year: 3,676/9,624 Month: 547/974 Week: 160/276 Day: 34/23 Hour: 0/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: dinosaur and human co-existence | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Iblis writes: No, the word dinosaur, "thunder lizard", turns out to be a misnomer. Lizards are reptiles, dragons, crocodiles and alligators are reptiles, snakes are also reptiles. Dinosaurs are not in fact reptiles. If you wanted to group them into one of our modern classifications, birds are in the direction you want to look. Different body structure, different apparent metabolism. The dodo would be a nice modern dinosaur, if they weren't extinct themselves. Those awesome birds like ostriches and emus in Catholic Scientist's Theropods and Birds showing a change in kinds are the best match for "modern dinosaurs" if you like. That's assuming you're a (relative) uniformitarian and skeptic of the Biblical Genesis record. There are several archived threads on this topic including this one, where beginning with message 7 I began debating this topic in that thread by quoting myself from a former thread, WHY WERE THERE VENOMOUS SNAKES:
Venomous Snake Thread; Buzsaw writes:
Perhaps the Biblical answer lies in the details of the curse upon the serpents in Genesis 3: 15, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel."The serpent was radically changed at the fall, according to the Genesis account. The clear implication is that the prefallen ones had longer legs and were walking and possibly flying creatures. Imo, the prefallen serpents were the dinosaurs whose offspring became snakes, lizzards, allegators, etc. They are all of the serpent family. (abe: aka referred to in literature and some sectors of academia as serpents) Likely two not mentioned results were diminished intelligence and poisonous venom. The serpents were the most intelligent of the animal kingdom at creation according to the account. A lot happened at this catastrophy of the fall, including thorny plants and so forth. I believe some plants became poisonous as well. I do not agree with most creationists such as ICR who believe and teach that dinosaurs were in Noah's ark. I do believe however, that the parent prefallen dinosaurs lived very long lives and many survived until the flood which would have been about 1500 years since many humans lived nearly a thousand years. Edited by Buzsaw, : Update message title BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Iblis Member (Idle past 3917 days) Posts: 663 Joined: |
I would have been happy to firmly agree with you on this one when I was 7. But when I was 8 I caught a "chameleon" (green anole) and stuck him on the table where I had my dino-rama set up to interact with his reptile buddies from ancient times. At that time, I became very aware of the fact that unlike alligators or iguanas or whatall, my komodos pictured previously, dinos look nothing like reptiles. Their body structure is profoundly different.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
just curious about what type of dinosaurs you are refering to. When i think of modern dinosaurs i think in terms of crocodiles and iguanas and comodo dragons arnt these all a type of 'dinosaur'.... literally meaning lizards? Dinosaur does not literally mean "lizard", it literally means "dinosaur". Oh, and crocodiles aren't lizards. There are a number of anatomical features that distinguish dinosaurs from other reptiles, the most crucial of which is that they have their legs under them like mammals rather than splayed out to the side. This required various anatomical adaptations, including the perforation of the acetabulum and the development of a head to the femur. Consider the diagram of hips and thighs below. From top to bottom: a basal reptile; an intermediate form such as Lagosuchus; and a true dinosaur.
Birds are modern dinosaurs. Iguanas aren't. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2127 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Buz -- there was no fall, no flood, and no ark. People did not live nearly a thousand years, nor did dinosaurs survive up to modern times (i.e., coexisting with humans) -- 1,000,000 Years B.C. notwithstanding (but Raquel Welch in a fur-lined outfit was worth the price of admission).
You keep trying to superimpose your religious belief on reality and the two don't seem to match. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Iblis writes: I would have been happy to firmly agree with you on this one when I was 7. But when I was 8 I caught a "chameleon" (green anole) and stuck him on the table where I had my dino-rama set up to interact with his reptile buddies from ancient times. At that time, I became very aware of the fact that unlike alligators or iguanas or whatall, my komodos pictured previously, dinos look nothing like reptiles. Their body structure is profoundly different. Their body physiology, in fact did become profoundly different after the fall curse, in which they lost their long legs, became belly crawlers, much smaller and perhaps other changes adapting them to a totally different existence. If you could take an alligator balloon; one of those that you can reshape and stretch out and enlarge the hind legs, and blow up the torsal, you wouldn't have to do a whole lot to the head and rest of the body to make it appear like Euparkeria BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DC85 Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
Their body physiology, in fact did become profoundly different after the fall curse, in which they lost their long legs, became belly crawlers, much smaller and perhaps other changes adapting them to a totally different existence. Wow... Thank you buzzsaw for showing us how little you know about biology. Dinosaurs even without legs would still be profoundly different from snakes. I can find far more in common with a Chicken then I could with a snake.
If you could take an alligator balloon; one of those that you can reshape and stretch out and enlarge the hind legs, and blow up the torsal, you wouldn't have to do a whole lot to the head and rest of the body to make it appear like Euparkeria Thank you Buzz Euparkeria is a great example of a family that were the transitions between Dinosaurs and Reptiles and in fact is not a Dinosaur. You'll find Euparkeria and late cretaceous Dinosaurs have very little in common... Edited by DC85, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Coyote writes: Buz -- there was no fall, no flood, and no ark. People did not live nearly a thousand years, nor did dinosaurs survive up to modern times (i.e., coexisting with humans) -- 1,000,000 Years B.C. notwithstanding (but Raquel Welch in a fur-lined outfit was worth the price of admission).You keep trying to superimpose your religious belief on reality and the two don't seem to match. By the same token I can say there was no space and time which the BB could have happened and no outside of into which it could expand. All hypotheses and theories have their unfalsifyable aspects. No? By the same token you keep trying to superimpose your secularist belief on reality and the two don't match. All that is observeable has an outside of, space into which it could exist and in which to expand, Reality is that both dinos and reptiles are known as serpents, many having similar visible physiological appearances, so which is more compatible with reality, your belief or mine? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
If you could take an alligator balloon; one of those that you can reshape and stretch out and enlarge the hind legs, and blow up the torsal, you wouldn't have to do a whole lot to the head and rest of the body to make it appear like Euparkeria Of course, to get it to breed true you'd also need to change to its genes such that its children grew up to look like Euparkaria. Would you do that gradually or all at once? --- This reminds me of a metaphysical puzzle I like to this about sometimes. What would be the difference between a magician instantaneously turning a beachball into an umbrella, and a magician instantaneously making a beachball disappear and an umbrella appear in the place where the beachball used to be. if there is a difference, are we meant to suppose a quintessence underlying the superficial qualities, such that the transformed object is still the original object, but having a completely different form? Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
By the same token I can say there was no space and time which the BB could have happened and no outside of into which it could expand. Yes, you could. And in doing so you would not be objecting to the Big Bang, because that's exactly what physicists would tell you about it. Now, back to the talking snakes and the inflatable crocodiles.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DC85 Member Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
Reality is that both dinos and reptiles are known as serpents This news to me.... sounds like something you made up....
, many having similar visible physiological appearances, so which is more compatible with reality I must see this. I'm sure you have examples if you made such a claim. Please provide it
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2127 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Reality is that both dinos and reptiles are known as serpents, many having similar visible physiological appearances, so which is more compatible with reality, your belief or mine? Mine. When will you ever learn not to try to lecture scientists on subjects about which you know nothing? Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Iblis Member (Idle past 3917 days) Posts: 663 Joined: |
Here's the thread you seem to not be linking
Why are there venomous snakes? profoundly different after the fall Why are there so many dino fossils if they only existed a short time? Why did all of them become cursed if only one was the devil? Why do they exist at all to be fossilized if they were cursed? Did the curse only affect their descendants? Why did the curse on humans affect those humans personally, while living dinosaurs got some sort of pass?
If you could take an alligator balloon; one of those that you can reshape and stretch out and enlarge the hind legs, and blah blah blah And if I take a chicken and pluck it and paint it green it looks like Godzilla. And if I take a picture of David Copperfield and draw a bunch of hippy hair and stigmata on it I "wouldn't have to do a whole lot to the head and the rest of the body" to pass him off as Jesus. So?
both dinos and reptiles are known as serpents That's poetic language. They are also called drakes, but that don't make em ducks do it? And most tellingly, they are called worms, which have a long association with apples. But worms certainly aren't reptiles, or dinosaurs, or anything except long digestive systems. Was the tempter a real worm in a real apple? Was the she-monkey going for the protein? No? How come any crazy stretch is fine if it supports your point, but obvious references are off base if they don't? * In case anyone has any confusion as to what Genesis 3 is really all about, I covered it quite clearly in Message 59 in Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.. Here, let me just quote myself (goose, meet gander)
meMeME writes: It isn't even so much allegory as light euphemism. The archetypal Man and Woman have just had their first experience with the sexual act, the "forbidden fruit" which is the source of adult rights and responsibilities (the knowledge of good and evil.) The first consequence is immediate physical soreness. The "serpent" (male sexual organ), which had stood surprisingly upright, now droops down and its head is bruised from the breaking of the hymen, which also results in the female sexual organ ("heel") being wounded, ie shedding blood. This is confirmed by the consequences which follow. The Woman will bear a child, which is a painful and unpleasant process. Bringing children into the world and the responsibility that entails affects not only the mother but also the Man, who must work hard for the rest of his life to care for his offspring. However some tradition they dispers'dAmong the Heathen of thir purchase got, And Fabl'd how the Serpent, whom they calld OPHION with EURYNOME, the wide- Encroaching EVE perhaps, had first the rule Of high OLYMPUS, thence by SATURN driv'n And OPS, ere yet DICTAEAN JOVE was born. -- Milton
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
Also, the message quality seems to be generally poor. The snark to substance ration doesn't seem good. If you can't post something of enlightening substance, then please don't post anything.
Adminnemoose Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add "snark" sentence.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
DrAdequate writes: Of course, to get it to breed true you'd also need to change to its genes such that its children grew up to look like Euparkaria. Would you do that gradually or all at once? First off, this aspect of the debate is relevant to topic in that the more evidence of similarities between dinos and contemporary reptiles, the more scientific the hypothesis that man and dinos lived contemporaneously becomes. As well, the more scientific the Biblical Genesis record becomes and the more scientific ID becomes. 1) The genes would have been ID altered so as to change the first generation of the parent dinos. 2) It would not have been sudden. It would have applied to the offspring of the cursed species. Since man lived hundreds of years, likely many of the parent dinos lived up until the time of the flood, their altered gene offspring modern reptiles being the ones which were loaded on Noah's ark. Thus, no unfossilized bones of dinos remaing and the likelihood of a false radiometric reading for age. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 2316 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Wow, that's some nice conjecture. You know what would make it really neat? Some friggin' evidence instead of wild made up ridiculous fairytales.
Seriously, this is the best you can come up with? Made up stuff? Pure friggin' magic? I can only assume you think us all complete retards, if you think this drivel will convince anyone with half a brain.... Sheesh...
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024