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Author Topic:   Fossils, strata and the flood
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 106 of 163 (558595)
05-02-2010 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Percy
05-02-2010 5:26 PM


small detail
hi Percy,

First, just to make sure you understand there's no claim that there's no such thing as horizontal and neatly parallel strata, here's an image of strata from the Grand Canyon. Obviously these strata are largely undisturbed by tectonic forces:

Except uplift ... and the fact that the whole plateau slopes gently to the south (ie generally perpendicular to the canyon and why the north side is generally higher than the south side)

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 107 of 163 (558604)
05-02-2010 11:38 PM


Hi all.

Apothecus has put the question better than what I have in the original post. This is what I would like a reasonable (i.e with clear evidence) reply to from the creationist community.

"Apothecus" writes:

In the fossil record, why are the single celled organisms found way down at the bottom, followed by progressively more complex organisms like trilobites, and on and on past early reptiles, amphibians, early mammals (in order, mind you), with early humans and their accompanying fellow "modern" organisms at the top of the heap? Would "magic water" make this happen and fly in the face of everything we observe about hydrodynamic sorting today?

Thanks.


Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 108 of 163 (558607)
05-03-2010 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by killinghurts
05-02-2010 11:38 PM


I would like a reasonable (i.e with clear evidence) reply to from the creationist community.

Well,you see, stuff happened which I made up and for which there is no evidence. And then other stuff happened which I made up, for which there is no evidence, and which is completely impossible. And then other stuff happened which I made up, for which there is no evidence, which is completely impossible, and which an invisible magical fairy in the sky did by magic.

And that is why every single detail of the fossil record testifies to the fact of evolution.

But I bet you thought that it was because evolution actually happened. Well, how naive is that?


This message is a reply to:
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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 109 of 163 (558970)
05-05-2010 9:18 PM


Thanks Dr Adequate, I can't help but detect a tone of sarcasm there...

Anyone else from the creationist community care to answer the question?


  
Architect-426
Member (Idle past 2788 days)
Posts: 76
From: NC, USA
Joined: 07-16-2008


Message 110 of 163 (559258)
05-07-2010 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
05-02-2010 9:12 AM


"Geology" is jacked-up... Stratification = Massive Volcanism
“I read a bio of Hutton too. Interesting how 18th century thinking simply became the standard. He looked at a formation and said it had to be old. And geo science hasn't progressed any since then.”

Faith, here, HERE!!! Geology is the most backward of all sciences. These guys cannot shake the early dogmatic teaching from Great Britain regarding the made up geological (illogical) “time column”. Thus geology is steeped in “tradition” rather than progressing, and as a result they simply regurgitate the same old thing to their students… “OK class of gullible non-thinking people, repeat after me…”

What is even more pathetic than this so called “science” of geology, which has its roots in evolution, is that the general public gets to see and hear their non-scientific theories which end up being nothing but pseudo-science, yet its slapped down as “fact”. They must steer away from physics, mechanics and dynamics because true science turns their pathetic ideas into mere mush. Moreover, they must steer away from massive volcanism as volcanoes tend to obliterate everything in their path…. stopping ‘evolution’ in its tracks. The Great Flood was a mega massive volcanic event, not just a flood.

Your points on stratification are well put, yet they fall on deaf ears simply because in order for evolution to be “true”, these layers MUST have had to been deposited slowly over milliards of years. This logic is base and non-scientific. One can open their eyes and look and the Grand Canyon and clearly see mass destruction. Of course the canyon is a batholith as it was uplifted by magma extrusion (now dried crystoline basement rock). The upper layers were definitely deposited aqueously and lithified **en masse** prior to the uplift. Real science, but pseudo-science has to see it as “slooow deposition and erosion”, or when we read into it, one massive mega destruction followed by peace and tranquility, then another mega massive destruction, followed by lilies and porky-pines, and then another destructive flood, etc. etc. This is their “logic”. Grrreat isn’t it? And these jacked-up goofy ideas (along with the pathetic plate tectonic 5cm/yr “bash ‘n crash” theory) make it inside the halls of what is called “science”.

Geology literally falls flat on its face in explaining HOW layers of rocks get piled up…it fails big-time. The forces required to do so are tremendous (primarily volcanic). And when these mega forces were in action, nothing was wiggling around for sure. In fact, things that were wiggling around turned into fossils due to being mixed inside the hot, plastic rocks as they were being “deposited”. Again, real science, yet the evolutionists must dance around this fact, big time.

Keep up the good work Faith… the whimsical theories of evolution are in their last saga.


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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2355 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 111 of 163 (559264)
05-07-2010 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Architect-426
05-07-2010 10:56 PM


Re: "Geology" is jacked-up... Stratification = Massive Volcanism
eology is the most backward of all sciences. These guys cannot shake the early dogmatic teaching from Great Britain regarding the made up geological (illogical) “time column”.

There is no DOGMA IN SCIENCE. Science constantly changes with newer evidence. That is all science Geology included. Creationism is Dogmatic, and totally based on Bronze age mythology, the Book of Genesis.

Edited by bluescat48, : wrong quote


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 112 of 163 (559269)
05-07-2010 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Architect-426
05-07-2010 10:56 PM


Re: "Geology" is jacked-up... Stratification = Massive Volcanism
Nice rant. I can't spot a single sentence in it which doesn't contain an explicit or implicit error. Your pastor must be very proud of you.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18484
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 113 of 163 (559287)
05-08-2010 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Architect-426
05-07-2010 10:56 PM


Re: "Geology" is jacked-up... Stratification = Massive Volcanism
So many errors, so little time, so I pick this one:

Architect-426 writes:

"I read a bio of Hutton too...."

What is even more pathetic than this so called “science” of geology, which has its roots in evolution...

Hutton and the science of geology preceded Darwin and the theory of evolution:

James Hutton 1726-1797
Charles Lyell 1797-1875
Charles Darwin 1809-1882

Darwin took Lyell's books with him on the Beagle before he'd even thought of evolution.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Woodsy
Member (Idle past 1539 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 114 of 163 (559294)
05-08-2010 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Dr Adequate
05-07-2010 11:45 PM


Re: "Geology" is jacked-up... Stratification = Massive Volcanism
Nice rant. I can't spot a single sentence in it which doesn't contain an explicit or implicit error. Your pastor must be very proud of you.

Well observed. It is amazing how religion rots the mind, isn't it?


This message is a reply to:
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Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 495 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 115 of 163 (559365)
05-08-2010 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Architect-426
05-07-2010 10:56 PM


Re: "Geology" is jacked-up... Stratification = Massive Volcanism
Architect-426 writes:

The Great Flood was a mega massive volcanic event, not just a flood.

So, since the Bible says nothing at all about volcanic activity in that part about Noah's Ark, the Bible must be wrong -- or at least, it fails miserably and massively as a historical record of the event. How can someone of your obvious mental capacity, A-426, put any faith at all in such a ridiculously inadequate document? I find this astonishing.

Oh, wait... were you just being a facetious troll? Anyone who enjoys the benefits of petroleum and coal products (i.e. anyone who uses a car, electricity, plastics, etc) would be downright stupid to assert that geology is trash, since geology (with it's assertions about plate tectonics and time columns that span 100's of millions of years) is what people use to actually find oil and coal. So by posing as a YEC who is stupid enough to make such assertions, you are actively exaggerating the stupidity of YECs.

Edited by Otto Tellick, : (fixed a misspelling)


autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.
This message is a reply to:
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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 116 of 163 (559367)
05-08-2010 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by RAZD
05-02-2010 6:43 PM


How deposition actually occurs and formations are made
Hi RAZD,

Since you were nice enough to actually read and think about my post to you last January on Gilbert Deltas. I thought I’d pass the following information along to you.

I’m hoping you take the time to look at it and think about it and expand your understanding of geology, something a lot of people on this site could use.

The Gilbert Delta is fairly simple, and I saw that you did understand what I told you about it.

Now I want to explore Sequence Stratigraphy. I want to look at depositional environments as they progress through time and how deposition and formations actually occur in the real world.

Let’s look at the Book Cliffs just north of Grand Junction Colorado and extending west into Utah.

This is a movie of the deposition, and I want you to look at it, and then go through it step by step, you can do that with the arrow on the right tool bar.

Think about the formations (a mapable unit), how they are formed, and how you see them today.

The movies here are easy to understand, at least for me, I’ve been making movies in my mind like this for 35 years. Taking the actual vertical information from well logs, drill cuttings, cores or seismic data is another ,perhaps, somewhat more difficult way to make this movie. It is how I make my living and find unknown and undiscovered oil and gas deposits.

Here is movie 1 of the Book Cliffs, watch it a few times and then go through it step by step and pay attention to what sea level is doing at any given time and the resulting deposition OR erosion.

Note that each step shows you a time line, and that formations are being deposited at the same time, not like the layer cake geology of 200 years ago.

http://sepmstrata.org/movies/CLASTICSYSTEMTRACTS.MOV

So you do see how formations are NOT deposited first one and then another, but are interrelated. As you go through step by step think of the different ecosystems, and that that is where you will find various fossils. You won’t find land dinosaurs in deep water deposits or marine fossils in land/fluvial deposits.

Fossils change from the Cambrian to the present but they also change laterally and occur in their appropriate depositional environment.

Note that what you see in the rocks vertically occurred horizontally at the same time.

There are also changes in the mineralogy and organic material as you move from the eroding mountains toward the seashore.

Here is movie 2, note the uplift, mountain building that occurs later in the video. The mountains are not shown off to the right but you can see their influence on the deposition and the resulting structure.

http://sepmstrata.org/movies/TwoSidedGif2.mov

Movie 3 shows how you use well log data to create a Stratigraphic Sequence and movie 4 uses seismic data to show the same.

http://sepmstrata.org/movies/INCISED-VALLEY.MOV

http://sepmstrata.org/movies/ChronoMovie.mov

There is a lot of information in these movies, if you or anyone else has a question, please feel free to ask.

More information can be found here:

The modules below are tied to lectures, movies and exercises that can be accessed from this web site and used for academic and educational purposes. They have been organized so the user can start with little understanding of sequence stratigraphy but through systematically following the modules in order can improve vocabulary, understanding and experience. Initial materials and exercises are introductory in character but as one moves through the modules, their materials become more sophisticated and challenging. Once the modules have been completed you should have a good understanding of sequence stratigraphy and should be able to use well, seismic and outcrop data to make mature interpretations of the sedimentary sections you might study. An additional intent of the web site is that it becomes a ready reference to the complex world of sequence stratigraphy!!
http://sepmstrata.org/exercises.html

Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2189
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 117 of 163 (559402)
05-09-2010 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by petrophysics1
05-08-2010 9:54 PM


Re: How deposition actually occurs and formations are made
petrophysics1 writes:

I’m hoping you take the time to look at it and think about it and expand your understanding of geology, something a lot of people on this site could use.

Great stuff, I also urge all to watch these movies, particularly the last two, in order to gain a deeper understanding of how things work in sedimentary geology and its affiliated fields.

The perfect antidote to the troll Architect-426's demonstrably false and simple-minded rants.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2189
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 118 of 163 (559403)
05-09-2010 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Percy
05-08-2010 7:53 AM


Appearance of Deception IMHO
Percy writes:

So many errors, so little time, so I pick this one:

Architect-426 writes:

quote:
"I read a bio of Hutton too...."

What is even more pathetic than this so called “science” of geology, which has its roots in evolution...


Hutton and the science of geology preceded Darwin and the theory of evolution:

James Hutton 1726-1797
Charles Lyell 1797-1875
Charles Darwin 1809-1882

Darwin took Lyell's books with him on the Beagle before he'd even thought of evolution.

I noticed this glaring mistake as I'm sure others did as well.

To me it casts doubt upon his claim that he ever read any biography on Hutton, or if he did, that his ability to read for comprehension is severely compromised by a physical or psychological defect.

I read, what to my knowledge, is the most recent biography of Hutton, am somewhat familiar with previous biographies, and must say it is impossible to come to any other conclusion.

That is unless Architect-426 read a four page pamphlet from Hovind or Baugh and refers to that as a comprehensive and vetted biography from a (choke) 'reliable' source.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Percy, posted 05-08-2010 7:53 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 3158 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 119 of 163 (560076)
05-13-2010 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Architect-426
05-07-2010 10:56 PM


Re: "Geology" is jacked-up... Stratification = Massive Volcanism
Hi Architect-426

"Architect-426" writes:


These guys cannot shake the early dogmatic teaching from Great Britain regarding the made up geological (illogical) “time column”.

Can you please detail (with examples) the "dogmatic teaching from Great Britain" to which you refer?

Thank you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Architect-426, posted 05-07-2010 10:56 PM Architect-426 has not yet responded

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1062 days)
Posts: 1493
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 120 of 163 (561729)
05-22-2010 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
05-02-2010 9:12 AM


Oh Lord...
You surely are the most delusional poster we've ever had on this forum. LOL You haven't a clue as to how geology works and I am quite certain you have never opened, much less read, a book on geology... ever. You, my dear, are a big, fat liar with a massive inferiority complex.

Edited by roxrkool, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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