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Author Topic:   dinosaur and human co-existence
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 271 (559246)
05-07-2010 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Iblis
05-07-2010 7:44 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
Iblis writes:
No, the word dinosaur, "thunder lizard", turns out to be a misnomer. Lizards are reptiles, dragons, crocodiles and alligators are reptiles, snakes are also reptiles. Dinosaurs are not in fact reptiles. If you wanted to group them into one of our modern classifications, birds are in the direction you want to look. Different body structure, different apparent metabolism. The dodo would be a nice modern dinosaur, if they weren't extinct themselves. Those awesome birds like ostriches and emus in Catholic Scientist's Theropods and Birds showing a change in kinds are the best match for "modern dinosaurs" if you like.
That's assuming you're a (relative) uniformitarian and skeptic of the Biblical Genesis record.
There are several archived threads on this topic including this one, where beginning with message 7 I began debating this topic in that thread by quoting myself from a former thread, WHY WERE THERE VENOMOUS SNAKES:
Venomous Snake Thread; Buzsaw writes:
Perhaps the Biblical answer lies in the details of the curse upon the serpents in Genesis 3: 15, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel."
The serpent was radically changed at the fall, according to the Genesis account. The clear implication is that the prefallen ones had longer legs and were walking and possibly flying creatures. Imo, the prefallen serpents were the dinosaurs whose offspring became snakes, lizzards, allegators, etc. They are all of the serpent family. (abe: aka referred to in literature and some sectors of academia as serpents) Likely two not mentioned results were diminished intelligence and poisonous venom. The serpents were the most intelligent of the animal kingdom at creation according to the account. A lot happened at this catastrophy of the fall, including thorny plants and so forth. I believe some plants became poisonous as well.
I do not agree with most creationists such as ICR who believe and teach that dinosaurs were in Noah's ark. I do believe however, that the parent prefallen dinosaurs lived very long lives and many survived until the flood which would have been about 1500 years since many humans lived nearly a thousand years.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Update message title

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Iblis, posted 05-07-2010 7:44 PM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Iblis, posted 05-07-2010 9:42 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 19 by Coyote, posted 05-07-2010 10:27 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 05-08-2010 6:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 17 of 271 (559250)
05-07-2010 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
05-07-2010 9:22 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
I would have been happy to firmly agree with you on this one when I was 7. But when I was 8 I caught a "chameleon" (green anole) and stuck him on the table where I had my dino-rama set up to interact with his reptile buddies from ancient times. At that time, I became very aware of the fact that unlike alligators or iguanas or whatall, my komodos pictured previously, dinos look nothing like reptiles. Their body structure is profoundly different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 05-07-2010 9:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 05-07-2010 10:52 PM Iblis has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 18 of 271 (559253)
05-07-2010 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Peg
05-07-2010 7:30 PM


Re: Where are the bones?
just curious about what type of dinosaurs you are refering to. When i think of modern dinosaurs i think in terms of crocodiles and iguanas and comodo dragons
arnt these all a type of 'dinosaur'.... literally meaning lizards?
Dinosaur does not literally mean "lizard", it literally means "dinosaur". Oh, and crocodiles aren't lizards.
There are a number of anatomical features that distinguish dinosaurs from other reptiles, the most crucial of which is that they have their legs under them like mammals rather than splayed out to the side. This required various anatomical adaptations, including the perforation of the acetabulum and the development of a head to the femur.
Consider the diagram of hips and thighs below. From top to bottom: a basal reptile; an intermediate form such as Lagosuchus; and a true dinosaur.
Birds are modern dinosaurs. Iguanas aren't.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Peg, posted 05-07-2010 7:30 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Peg, posted 05-08-2010 6:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 19 of 271 (559255)
05-07-2010 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
05-07-2010 9:22 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
Buz -- there was no fall, no flood, and no ark. People did not live nearly a thousand years, nor did dinosaurs survive up to modern times (i.e., coexisting with humans) -- 1,000,000 Years B.C. notwithstanding (but Raquel Welch in a fur-lined outfit was worth the price of admission).
You keep trying to superimpose your religious belief on reality and the two don't seem to match.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 05-07-2010 9:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 05-07-2010 11:22 PM Coyote has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 271 (559257)
05-07-2010 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Iblis
05-07-2010 9:42 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
Iblis writes:
I would have been happy to firmly agree with you on this one when I was 7. But when I was 8 I caught a "chameleon" (green anole) and stuck him on the table where I had my dino-rama set up to interact with his reptile buddies from ancient times. At that time, I became very aware of the fact that unlike alligators or iguanas or whatall, my komodos pictured previously, dinos look nothing like reptiles. Their body structure is profoundly different.
Their body physiology, in fact did become profoundly different after the fall curse, in which they lost their long legs, became belly crawlers, much smaller and perhaps other changes adapting them to a totally different existence.
If you could take an alligator balloon; one of those that you can reshape and stretch out and enlarge the hind legs, and blow up the torsal, you wouldn't have to do a whole lot to the head and rest of the body to make it appear like Euparkeria

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Iblis, posted 05-07-2010 9:42 PM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by DC85, posted 05-07-2010 11:09 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 23 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-07-2010 11:27 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 27 by Iblis, posted 05-08-2010 1:03 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 21 of 271 (559261)
05-07-2010 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
05-07-2010 10:52 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
Their body physiology, in fact did become profoundly different after the fall curse, in which they lost their long legs, became belly crawlers, much smaller and perhaps other changes adapting them to a totally different existence.
Wow... Thank you buzzsaw for showing us how little you know about biology. Dinosaurs even without legs would still be profoundly different from snakes. I can find far more in common with a Chicken then I could with a snake.
If you could take an alligator balloon; one of those that you can reshape and stretch out and enlarge the hind legs, and blow up the torsal, you wouldn't have to do a whole lot to the head and rest of the body to make it appear like Euparkeria
Thank you Buzz Euparkeria is a great example of a family that were the transitions between Dinosaurs and Reptiles and in fact is not a Dinosaur. You'll find Euparkeria and late cretaceous Dinosaurs have very little in common...
Edited by DC85, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 05-07-2010 10:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 271 (559263)
05-07-2010 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Coyote
05-07-2010 10:27 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
Coyote writes:
Buz -- there was no fall, no flood, and no ark. People did not live nearly a thousand years, nor did dinosaurs survive up to modern times (i.e., coexisting with humans) -- 1,000,000 Years B.C. notwithstanding (but Raquel Welch in a fur-lined outfit was worth the price of admission).
You keep trying to superimpose your religious belief on reality and the two don't seem to match.
By the same token I can say there was no space and time which the BB could have happened and no outside of into which it could expand. All hypotheses and theories have their unfalsifyable aspects. No?
By the same token you keep trying to superimpose your secularist belief on reality and the two don't match. All that is observeable has an outside of, space into which it could exist and in which to expand,
Reality is that both dinos and reptiles are known as serpents, many having similar visible physiological appearances, so which is more compatible with reality, your belief or mine?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Coyote, posted 05-07-2010 10:27 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-07-2010 11:29 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 25 by DC85, posted 05-07-2010 11:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 26 by Coyote, posted 05-07-2010 11:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 23 of 271 (559265)
05-07-2010 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
05-07-2010 10:52 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
If you could take an alligator balloon; one of those that you can reshape and stretch out and enlarge the hind legs, and blow up the torsal, you wouldn't have to do a whole lot to the head and rest of the body to make it appear like Euparkeria
Of course, to get it to breed true you'd also need to change to its genes such that its children grew up to look like Euparkaria.
Would you do that gradually or all at once?
---
This reminds me of a metaphysical puzzle I like to this about sometimes. What would be the difference between a magician instantaneously turning a beachball into an umbrella, and a magician instantaneously making a beachball disappear and an umbrella appear in the place where the beachball used to be. if there is a difference, are we meant to suppose a quintessence underlying the superficial qualities, such that the transformed object is still the original object, but having a completely different form?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 05-07-2010 10:52 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 05-08-2010 5:30 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 24 of 271 (559266)
05-07-2010 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
05-07-2010 11:22 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
By the same token I can say there was no space and time which the BB could have happened and no outside of into which it could expand.
Yes, you could. And in doing so you would not be objecting to the Big Bang, because that's exactly what physicists would tell you about it.
Now, back to the talking snakes and the inflatable crocodiles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 05-07-2010 11:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 25 of 271 (559267)
05-07-2010 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
05-07-2010 11:22 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
Reality is that both dinos and reptiles are known as serpents
This news to me.... sounds like something you made up....
, many having similar visible physiological appearances, so which is more compatible with reality
I must see this. I'm sure you have examples if you made such a claim. Please provide it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 05-07-2010 11:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 26 of 271 (559268)
05-07-2010 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Buzsaw
05-07-2010 11:22 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
Reality is that both dinos and reptiles are known as serpents, many having similar visible physiological appearances, so which is more compatible with reality, your belief or mine?
Mine.
When will you ever learn not to try to lecture scientists on subjects about which you know nothing?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Buzsaw, posted 05-07-2010 11:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 27 of 271 (559273)
05-08-2010 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
05-07-2010 10:52 PM


Worm Turns
Here's the thread you seem to not be linking
Why are there venomous snakes?
profoundly different after the fall
Why are there so many dino fossils if they only existed a short time?
Why did all of them become cursed if only one was the devil?
Why do they exist at all to be fossilized if they were cursed? Did the curse only affect their descendants? Why did the curse on humans affect those humans personally, while living dinosaurs got some sort of pass?
If you could take an alligator balloon; one of those that you can reshape and stretch out and enlarge the hind legs, and blah blah blah
And if I take a chicken and pluck it and paint it green it looks like Godzilla. And if I take a picture of David Copperfield and draw a bunch of hippy hair and stigmata on it I "wouldn't have to do a whole lot to the head and the rest of the body" to pass him off as Jesus. So?
both dinos and reptiles are known as serpents
That's poetic language. They are also called drakes, but that don't make em ducks do it? And most tellingly, they are called worms, which have a long association with apples. But worms certainly aren't reptiles, or dinosaurs, or anything except long digestive systems. Was the tempter a real worm in a real apple? Was the she-monkey going for the protein? No?
How come any crazy stretch is fine if it supports your point, but obvious references are off base if they don't?
* In case anyone has any confusion as to what Genesis 3 is really all about, I covered it quite clearly in Message 59 in Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure..
Here, let me just quote myself (goose, meet gander)
meMeME writes:
It isn't even so much allegory as light euphemism. The archetypal Man and Woman have just had their first experience with the sexual act, the "forbidden fruit" which is the source of adult rights and responsibilities (the knowledge of good and evil.) The first consequence is immediate physical soreness. The "serpent" (male sexual organ), which had stood surprisingly upright, now droops down and its head is bruised from the breaking of the hymen, which also results in the female sexual organ ("heel") being wounded, ie shedding blood.
This is confirmed by the consequences which follow. The Woman will bear a child, which is a painful and unpleasant process. Bringing children into the world and the responsibility that entails affects not only the mother but also the Man, who must work hard for the rest of his life to care for his offspring.
However some tradition they dispers'd
Among the Heathen of thir purchase got,
And Fabl'd how the Serpent, whom they calld
OPHION with EURYNOME, the wide-
Encroaching EVE perhaps, had first the rule
Of high OLYMPUS, thence by SATURN driv'n
And OPS, ere yet DICTAEAN JOVE was born.
-- Milton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 05-07-2010 10:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 28 of 271 (559275)
05-08-2010 1:36 AM


Watch out for topic abandonment
Also, the message quality seems to be generally poor. The snark to substance ration doesn't seem good. If you can't post something of enlightening substance, then please don't post anything.
Adminnemoose
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add "snark" sentence.

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 271 (559340)
05-08-2010 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Dr Adequate
05-07-2010 11:27 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
DrAdequate writes:
Of course, to get it to breed true you'd also need to change to its genes such that its children grew up to look like Euparkaria.
Would you do that gradually or all at once?
First off, this aspect of the debate is relevant to topic in that the more evidence of similarities between dinos and contemporary reptiles, the more scientific the hypothesis that man and dinos lived contemporaneously becomes. As well, the more scientific the Biblical Genesis record becomes and the more scientific ID becomes.
1) The genes would have been ID altered so as to change the first generation of the parent dinos.
2) It would not have been sudden. It would have applied to the offspring of the cursed species. Since man lived hundreds of years, likely many of the parent dinos lived up until the time of the flood, their altered gene offspring modern reptiles being the ones which were loaded on Noah's ark. Thus, no unfossilized bones of dinos remaing and the likelihood of a false radiometric reading for age.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-07-2010 11:27 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Huntard, posted 05-08-2010 5:41 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-08-2010 9:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 30 of 271 (559341)
05-08-2010 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Buzsaw
05-08-2010 5:30 PM


Re: Dino Serpents
Wow, that's some nice conjecture. You know what would make it really neat? Some friggin' evidence instead of wild made up ridiculous fairytales.
Seriously, this is the best you can come up with? Made up stuff? Pure friggin' magic? I can only assume you think us all complete retards, if you think this drivel will convince anyone with half a brain.... Sheesh...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 05-08-2010 5:30 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 05-08-2010 6:38 PM Huntard has not replied

  
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