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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
Pauline
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 473 of 492 (558606)
05-03-2010 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by Peg
05-02-2010 7:26 PM


Peg writes:
The word was WITH God. So the word cannot BE God.
John 1:1 (New International Version)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
So the Word cannot BE God?
Okay, forget that.
How about these claims of divinity Jesus made?
John 8:58 (New International Version)
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Lk 22: 66At daybreak the council of the elders of the people, both the chief priests and teachers of the law, met together, and Jesus was led before them. 67"If you are the Christ,[d]" they said, "tell us."
Jesus answered, "If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
70They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
In light of systematic theology, which is assimilating what is true about specific topics in the Bible into one system of thought, John 1:1 at best is understood to directly reference to the Doctrine of Trinity. At worst, some people use it to make Jesus just a man...
The Word Trinity is never mentioned in the Bible, that is true. But so are a lot of other things we today believe. This doesn't mean that we totally disregard other verses JUST because John 1:1 might be interpreted by some with ambiguity...
Just thought I'd butt in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Peg, posted 05-02-2010 7:26 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by Peg, posted 05-03-2010 8:45 PM Pauline has replied

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 479 of 492 (558773)
05-04-2010 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by Peg
05-03-2010 8:45 PM


Peg writes:
As you can see the above translators do not agree that Jesus was using the expression found in Exodus. The reason for that is because the words used are completely different. the I Am in exodus is a title and the word is Ehyh
However, in John the expression is I have been which is made up of two Hebrew words, both a pronoun and a verb, an haythi
So its not the same expression which is why some translators do not use 'I AM' in their translations.
That wasn't the point.
My point was, Christ is claiming eternality, an attribute we ascribeonly to God. If He wants to be called eternal, then He wants to be called God. Before Abraham was born, I was already existing! --like one of the translation said.
Peg writes:
This passage shows that Jesus never claimed to be God. His claim was that he was the 'Christ' and the 'Son of God'. Not God himself.
Oh, good old JW argument.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life?
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Peg, posted 05-03-2010 8:45 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by Peg, posted 05-04-2010 8:11 PM Pauline has replied

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 480 of 492 (558779)
05-04-2010 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by Peg
05-03-2010 8:47 PM


Peg writes:
If the trinity is 3 in one, why is only Jesus mentioned along with God? Where is the holy spirit, the 3rd person of the trinity?
The Great Commission
16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
If Jesus and the Holy Spirit were not equivalent in substance to God the Father, then that would be as ridiculous as saying "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Dr. Sing, and Peg. And Lo, Dr.Sing is with you till the end of this world."
Um, yeah, that's pretty lame and....disturbing. I mean, why equate two humans--me and you--with God! In the same way, why equate a human (Christ) and spirit with God Himself!.....
Well, analyze for yourself whether the Holy Spirit is God or not from the things He does...
Incarnation
Luke 1:35
Inauguration of His ministry
Matt 3:16
Teaching and miracle working
Luke 4
Passion Discourse
The Holy Spirit is going to empower you to do the work
Death and Resurrection
Heb 9:14
Peg writes:
perhaps you can explain then why the holy spirit is not also mentioned in John 1:1.
I'll just give you my thoughts on that, if thats okay.
The Holy Spirit is not introduced until right before Christ's death on the cross. Sure, there are very few references to Him in the OT. But they leave us only with questions--as to who He is and what He does. Its not until this passage,
John 16: 12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. "
..that we know, "ohh...so thats who the Holy Spirit is and what He does!"
There is a right time for everything. Personally, I think that this was the perfect time to introduce the Holy Spirit, since He would "take the torch" from Christ so to speak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Peg, posted 05-03-2010 8:47 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by Peg, posted 05-04-2010 8:23 PM Pauline has not replied

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 488 of 492 (558877)
05-05-2010 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Peg
05-04-2010 8:11 PM


so was Satan the devil...so were the myriads of other angels who exist in the heavens with God
even Adam and Eve had the opportunity to exist forever.
Dearest of dears, eternality is different from immortality. I'm sure you know that, I'm just reminding you. Being eternal means you have no beginning and no end. Being immortal means you have a beginning and no end.
Satan had a beginning. Adam did. Eve did.
Just as Satan did before he became a sinner and just as Adam and Eve did before they became sinners.
Are you awake Peg?
So if Adam, Eve, and Satan sinned at SOME POINT in their lifetime, how can they have lived sinless lives?? I mean, ?????????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Peg, posted 05-04-2010 8:11 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Peg, posted 05-05-2010 7:50 PM Pauline has replied

  
Pauline
Member (Idle past 3757 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 490 of 492 (559867)
05-11-2010 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Peg
05-05-2010 7:50 PM


All quotes by Peg
Colossian 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all creation"
Did you know that some translations have the rendering, "the firstborn over all creation?
Do you know the difference it makes?
By now, do you know that for you to base you argument for Jesus' non-deity on this phrase--is invalid?
Revelation 3:14 And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION by God"
Same goes for this verse. Some translations have "...true witness, the ruler of God's creation"
And there is a prophetic passage in Proverbs 8 that describes the one who God/Jehovah created before all other things
Provers 8:22 Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. ... 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; ...30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.
Look at this, Peg.
Proverbs 8:22 (New International Version)
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] , [b]
before his deeds of old;
Footnotes:
1. Proverbs 8:22 Or way ; or dominion
2. Proverbs 8:22 Or The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work ; or The LORD brought me forth at the beginning of his work
First of all,
1) Why are you identifying wisdom with Jesus?
2) How do you explain footnote 2?
sin is only an action. You cant be accused of being a sinner until you have actually sinned.
That's.......obvious.
So, no man other than Jesus Christ lived a sinless life, agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Peg, posted 05-05-2010 7:50 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Peg, posted 05-14-2010 8:41 AM Pauline has not replied

  
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