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Author Topic:   Page's misuse of Haldane's Dilemma
John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 57 (5588)
02-26-2002 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by toff
02-26-2002 11:06 AM


[b]
quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
How do we detect mutations and calculate the 'good':'bad'
ratio ?

quote:
Originally posted by toff:
We don't have to; it's simply inevitable that mutations are predominantly good, rather than bad.
John Paul:
Is that so? Peter it just happens that most mutations are either harmful or neutral. Very rare are the beneficial mutations. If Fred reads this maybe he can re-post the graph that shows this.
quote:
toff:
For an organism to have a mutation, it must be alive...which means it 'works'.
John Paul:
Sharp fella, this one.
quote:
toff:
Since mutations are random, and there are vastly more ways of 'breaking' something that works than there are of 'improving' it, there are vastly more bad mutations than there are good.
John Paul:
Oh the irony. Can anyone else see it?
If you are saying that copying errors, ie point mutations, are random, fine. But if you are calling mutations such as recombinations, duplications, insertions, deletions, tranposons, blah, blah, blah, random, just because we don't yet understand them, and especially since these types of mutations require special enzymes to do the trick, there would be no justification for that term.
quote:
toff:
And vastly more that are neither good nor bad.
John Paul:
ie neutral.
quote:
toff:
Imagine a complex engine. At random, you weld a piece of metal on to it somewhere. Now you turn on the engine. What are the odds that you 'broke' it, compared to that you 'improved' it?
John Paul:
Are you saying biological organisms are like engines? Recognizing the similarities between biochemical systems and machines is the first step to becoming an IDist!
Way to go toff!
------------------
John Paul
[This message has been edited by John Paul, 02-26-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by toff, posted 02-26-2002 11:06 AM toff has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by LudvanB, posted 02-26-2002 6:17 PM John Paul has not replied
 Message 11 by Fred Williams, posted 02-26-2002 6:24 PM John Paul has replied

John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 57 (5599)
02-26-2002 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Fred Williams
02-26-2002 6:24 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Fred Williams:
My pleasure. The graph is from Futuyma's Evolutionary Biology textbook, 1998.
Futuyma believes that "the great majority of mutations are deleterious or nearly neutral". Not neutral, nearly neutral (ie, slightly harmful). It is false to claim most mutations are purely neutral, especially as we uncover more and more examples of non-coding DNA that serves some function.

John Paul:
There you have it. Thank you Fred.
Also what is a beneficial mutation? All beneficial means is that it gives that organism a (slightly) better chance at survival than it would have without it. And seeing there is no way to predict what would be selected for at any point in time, 'beneficial' would be a relative term.
------------------
John Paul

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Fred Williams, posted 02-26-2002 6:24 PM Fred Williams has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by mark24, posted 02-26-2002 7:19 PM John Paul has not replied

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