'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

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DPowell: Go to v.3 to get some context. "As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, 'Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?'"

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Don't you mean, "what will be the sign of Your GOING?" LOL!You see that I am correct. Jesus was telling them about His COMING, not His GOING, and that His COMING was tied to the end of the age, not the Transfiguration, Ascension, Pentecost, etc.

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DPowell: Read from v.4 down through v.34. Jesus does not actually answer the question of "when," which Jesus Himself did not claim to know but which remained only in the mind of the Father (Acts 1:6-8).

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1) Um, that's not what the Bible says.
The Bible says Jesus said He did not know the the day or the hour. It doesn't say He did not know the generation: and in fact, the Bible does say that Jesus DID know the generation.2) Not all ancient sources include the part about Jesus Himself not knowing the day or the hour.In fact, even if you checked different versions of the Bible you'd see the inconsistency on this.a. The KJV does not include "nor the Son".b. The NASB includes it, without comment.c. The AMP adds the qualifier "[exact]" to make it "But of that [exact] day and hour ...".d. NRSV includes "nor the Son", but notes that "Other ancient authorities lack nor the Son".e. The NIV has "nor the Son", but notes "Some manuscripts do not have nor the Son."f. The ESV has "nor the Son", but notes "Some manuscriptes omit nor the Son".So you don't even have solid Biblical backing for Jesus not knowing the day and hour (let alone the generation).

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DPowell: How, then, could Jesus' use of "genea" (generation, age, race, etc.) have been a time frame qualifier?

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Because a generation in the Bible is 40 years, not a mere day or hour.

Its quite clear throughout the NT, that the second coming was to occur during the "lifetime" of the followers of Jesus. Never does the Bible say Jesus will return far in the future. Its always "near", "nearby", "around the corner", "soon" etc.. Matthew 24 clearly states that his disciples will witness all the signs of his return. No sense of telling them to watch anyway, if he isnt returning for 2000 years.A few of my favorite verses dealing with the return of Jesus are:"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Matt 16:27-28.Its very telling this scripture. Jesus is refering to his return. Those standing with him shall witness this event. Christians of course, have to pretend it refers to something else, not the second coming. But the key point is that Jesus clarifies the time frame.Those standing with him with him will be around when god rewards/punishes mankind. This clearly lays out the end times.Luke 21:25-28 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift your heads, becasue your redemption is drawing near."Jesus again is speaking to those in front of him, stating they will witness these events.1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.Paul makes it clear, he or others of his time, will be alive when Jesus returns.

You are also trying to pull Jesus' statement out of context: you are trying to change what it clearly applies to.Farther along in Matthew Jesus tells more about the coming of the Son of Man with the angels and his rewarding people according to what they have done ...

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[Jesus said,] "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

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Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' ...

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Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' ...

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Then they [the goats on his left] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous [the sheep on his right] to eternal life."
(Matthew 25:31-36, 41-43, 46)

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That is not talking about the Transfiguration, Crucifixion, Ascension, Pentecost, etc.Same with the following, which is directly connected to one of the passages where Jesus goofs by saying that the end - yes, the end - will come before the current generation passes away.

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Jesus answered [the disciples in private,] ... "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert', do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms', do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
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At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one of the heavens to the other."
(Matthew 24:4, 26-27, 30-31)

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The above verses are not referring to the Transfiguration, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, or Pentecost.The coming of the Son of Man will be a major, worldwide event, clearly visible from east to west, with all the nations of the world mourning, and angels gathering the elect (as in Matthew 25:31-36, 41-43, 46).And then there's this ...

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Jesus answered [the disciples in private,] ... "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark: and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and other left.
... So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
(Matthew 24:4, 36-41, 44)

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This is clearly talking about the Son of Man coming to earth, not Him going up during His resurrection, nor about flames coming down upon a few people during Pentecost. It is talking about Jesus' second coming.All the material I have quoted from Matthew about the coming of the Son of Man is consistent with it referring to Jesus' second coming.On the other hand, various parts that I have quoted directly from the Bible contradict events some Christians try to substitute for Jesus' second coming, such as Jesus' transfiguration, Jesus' resurrection, Pentecost, an individual person being 'saved', and so on. So first, let's all be honest and keep the discussion on topic. The passages of interest - where Jesus is a false prophet - deal with His second coming - the coming of the Son of Man in judgement: they do NOT deal with His miraculous birth, His transfiguration, His crucifixion, His resurrection, His ascension, or the Pentecost.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.

"This generation" when used in the Bible, EVERY time it refers to that time frame of the person speaking. Same applies in Matthew 24.Also, the story (Matthew 24) does not end with the chapter. It continues in the next chapter where it clearly shows its refering to the end times.Christians take a snippet of verse and tend to ignore the surrounding context.31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I disagree. Generation sometimes is used not according to the age of persons but to a prevailing moral condition. (Matt. 11:16; 12:39, 41-42, 45; Proverbs 30:11-13).Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

None of these passages establish your claim. Matt. 24:30 has received this better translation in the Recovery Version Bible: "And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man comingon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:30) It is the Jewish tribes of the Holy Land which is refered to as in Revelation 1:7 "Behold, He comes with the clouds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him ..."The better translattion is that "and all the tribes of the land will mourn over Him." Some versions may say "nations of the earth" but I think "tribes of the land" is better. And the passage itself is a quotation of Zechariah 12:10 which is in a prophecy about certain Israelite tribes which will repent at seeing their pierced God.What is more logical is that Christ, in returning to the Holy Land miraculously from Heaven will be witnessed by the Jewish tribes of the land of Israel.It could be that the convulsions of nature are something witnessed world wide. But the actual coming down of Christ seems to be seen only in the Holy Land by the people in that region, particularly the Jewish tribes living there.The verses in Matthew 25 speak of Christ gathering the nations not of them seeing His coming down on the clouds. And the timeframe of this gathering could possibly be over a longer period than the instance of His descending to earth.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You cannot force this passage to mean Paul expected to be alive at the time of the second coming of Christ. He can speak of "we" in a general way. That is the entire universal community of faith forms the "we". "Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."The phrase "we who are living" does not insist that everyone reading that letter will be living. It may be their hope that they would be living. But hope and prediction are not the same.The "we" should be regarded as the church universal and applies to every age in which the church continues to exist. Some will have died in Christ and some will be alive and remaining at His coming.Actually, the open endedness of the phrase " who are left remaining" also leaves room for the possibility that some Christians were previously raptured already before this open and public descension of Christ. First Thessalonians 4:17 does not insist that Paul will be alive when Jesus comes in His second coming. Nor does it insist that Jesus could not have previously taken some to Him before He descends in this glorious way visibly.Peter and Paul both yearned to have Jesus come back as soon as possible. What lovers do not long to be together as soon as possible ? However, their longing for this was not their prediction that it would be that way.And in both their epistles, they prepare their audience for the possibility that the Christian church will be without them. In both their writings, their longing for Christ's soon return did not stop them from preparing the church for a long distance run as a precaution that Christ would not come until after they died.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

"This generation" when used in the Bible, EVERY time it refers to that time frame of the person speaking. Same applies in Matthew 24. Jay, I left the Is Jesus God thread bc you created so many strawman arguments, I couldnt follow anymore. You're doing it again. Every time "this generation" is used, it refers to the time line being referenced. Every single time. Heck, Matthew 12 doesnt even use "this generation" nor does Proverbs 30:11.----------------------------------------------------------------------------Matthew 24 clearly states Jesus will return during the lifetime of those present. Chapter 25 continues explaining this. Throughout the NT, over and over, its always the same. The return of Jesus is "right around the corner","near", "nearby", "soon" etc.. Only in apologetics does any of this mean thousands of years later.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Paul makes it clear, he or others of his time, will be alive when Jesus returns. Paul states "we", not "you". He is addressing those in his time frame. Nope. Nothing in scripture suggests this at all. If Paul states "you", then you might have a point. "We" includes Paul.In fact, using CONTEXT, we can see Paul quite clearly states Jesus will return during the "lifetime" of his writings."Behold! I tell you a mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED... in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet... the dead will be raised..." (1Corinthians 15:51,52)Again, Paul does not state "you", but "we".Romans 16, whom is Paul speaking to? That time frame or you today? Read it carefully.Philippians 1
1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:Whom is Paul addressing? Those during his time frame or you today? Again, read carefully.

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Matt. 24:30 has received this better translation in the Recovery Version Bible:

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"And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:30)

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The ASV, YLT, ESV, AMP, NASB, KJV, and NIV versions of the Bible all translate it as all the tribes [or nations] of the earth, not of the land.So I certainly do have Biblical support for my statement.Further, you are agreeing with me that it is talking about the coming of the Son of Man, and not the Transfiguration, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, or Pentecost. And that's the more important point.

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You cannot force this passage to mean Paul expected to be alive at the time of the second coming of Christ. He can speak of "we" in a general way. That is the entire universal community of faith forms the "we".

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Nope. YOU cannot force this passage to mean Paul was talking about the entire universal community of faith, at all times throughout all remaining history. That's not what is said.Paul refers to himself as part of "we" throughout that letter.
Some examples:

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"Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy.
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace.
We [Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy] give thanks to God always for all of you ..."
(1 Thessalonians 1:1-2 )

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"You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake."
(1 Thessalonians 1:5)

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"For you yourselves know, brothers, that our coming to you was not in vain. But though we had already suffered and been shamefully treated at Philippi, as you know ..."
(1 Thessalonians 2:1-2)

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"For we never came with words of flattery, as you know, nor with a pretext of greed - God is witness. Nor did we seek glory fro people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ. But we were gentle among you ..."
(1 Thessalonians 2:5-7)

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"For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God."
(1 Thessalonians 2:9)

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"Therefore when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left behind at Athens alone, and we sent Timothy, our brother and God's coworker in the gospel of Christ, to establish and exhort you in your faith ..."
(1 Thessalonians 3:1-2)

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"For what thanksgiving can we return to God for you, for all the joy that we feel for your sake before our God, as we pray most earnestly night and day that we may see you face to face and supply what is lacking in your faith?"
(1 Thessalonians 3:9-10)

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I could go on. Paul continually counts himself among the "we" he mentions.Now let's look at the first verse of the part of interest:

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"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not greive as others do who have no hope."
(1 Thessalonians 4:13)

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That is the intro to the alleged Rapture passage. Note again, as in all the rest of 1 Thessalonians:1. Paul is part of "we".2. Paul is talking to a particular group of people, living in his own day.And nowhere is the rest of the passages of interest is there any indication that Paul has stopped talking about himself as part of "we", nor are there any indications that he suddently stopped talking to only those who the letter is addressed to and to whom the entire rest of the letter addresses specifically.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.Edited by gragbarder, : No reason given.

The difference is that Paul in chapter 4 is speaking of the second coming of Christ to the entire church. He is of course not teaching that ONLY for the Thessalonians is Jesus coming back.The "we" therefore should be a in reference to the church universal and not to the local church only which was in Thessalonica. Paul and the Thessonlonians are part of the church universal, as are all Christians.The thought of one locality being a part of a larger universal body which covers all geographic areas and all times is seen more in Ephesians 2:20,21: "Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the chief cornerstone;

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In whom all the building, being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;

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In whom YOU ALSO are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:20-22 my emphasis) The building of this living temple of God is not limited to the church in Ephesus. They ALSO are being built up into this universal habitation of God in spirit.By the same token, Paul's discourse about Christ coming for the believers is not limited to the church in Thessalonica. It would include Ephesus, Colossia, the churches in Galatia, the churches in Judea, and other churches throughout the ages down until the time of Christ's second coming. "We" in Second Thessalonians 4:17 includes more than just Paul and his Thessalonian audience.It would be equally illogical to read 5:10 as related to only Paul, Silvanus, Timothy and the Thessalonians as the ones for whom Jesus died: " ... Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us in order that whether we watch or sleep, we may live together with Him" (5:10) "Us" and "we" there also has a larger scope than just those Thessalonians and the authors of the letter.Of course Christ died for the Christians in Rome and in Antioch also. And Christ died for the believers not yet born when Paul wrote First Thessalonians.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You have the right to choose which English translation you prefer. I have support also for "tribes of the land" is an admisable rendering. I am not sure why you mention Crucifixion, Resurrection, etc.But the passage says that some would not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. You are reading "Son of man coming in His kingdom" and inserting "the second coming".In His coming physically to the earth again He comes in His transfiguration state. The concealed divine glory within His humanity will burst forth. They on the mountain got a preview not only of Christ's transfiguration but of what will occur to His overcoming followers as well.Where as your prioritities may be on the time of His second coming, His priorities are on the release of the hidden divine glory from the concealing shell of humanity.I think it is a slight difference in priorities. Whereas you're looking for a fool proof prediction of when the moment comes, Jesus is more focused on the quality of the manifestation of this kingdom.If it had been a prediction that the contemporaries would not die before the second coming, it is quite commendable and candid that the church included the passage which would have been potentially embaressing to them.The inclusion of the passage, to me, argues for the faithfulness of the Gospel writers/compilers to include difficult or contraversial sayings of Jesus. Propogandist of an ordinary sort would likely keep concealed an alledgedly "failed" prediction of thier Master.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The word generation itself does not have to be taken as a human life span as indicated in the verses I provided.So "this generation" in Matthew 24 could take on a meaning of this generation defined by a moral condition. Matthew 25 simply says "WHEN" ... "but when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory." It is a leap at best to insist that that can only be understood as while His contemporary audience is still alive. "When" is simply "when". "At that time" is simply "at that time". Since Jesus said "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has set by His own authority" (Acts 1:7) no disciples can insist they know the precise time "soon" or "latter" of His coming.If it is not for us disciples to know for certain the times and seasons then we cannot insist that His the "soon" coming of the Lord is a failed prophecy.Furthermore, He said it was at an hour when we think not or least expect. "You also, be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming." (Luke 12:40)So Acts tells us it is not for us to know the times or seasons the Father has fixed and Luke says the Son of Man is coming when we do not expect. So emphasis in the NT is on readiness to supplement the fact that we do NOT know when He comes.If the first disciples thought Jesus was coming right away, there is no harm in that. They lived accordingly, They saw to it that they would be ready. I want to live the same way even if Jesus is not to return for another 500 years.For the Christian it is very good to live this way. There is no harm in it. "And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself even as He is pure." (1 John 3:3) Do you see Paul depressed and dejected in his final epistles because he is expecting to die ?Which epistle do we see depression, dejection, self pitying, remorse because the Lord Jesus has not yet come ?It seems that you skeptics are the only ones terribly upset about it. And that for dubious reasons. You desperately need something to convince yourselves that the words of Jesus should not be taken seriously.However, in speaking of His second coming He did left it open ended enough that even if the physical universe should decay His words would still not fail. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away." (Matt. 24:35) The point is that His words are so faithful as to outlast the physical universe itself. So however long it takes for Him to physically return it cannot fail to occur.Since many of us are busy allowing Jesus to fill up our souls more and more we have plenty of time to be busy with the things of God. Maybe skeptics sitting around with no real reason to live spend their years gloating that Jesus has not returned yet.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

G, just a quick question. What KEYS, to what kingdom, do you suppose Christ gave to Peter in Matt 16?EAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

The verses you provided only ONE of them deals with "this generation". The others do not. Second, "this generation" EVERY time refers to that time period being refered to. Third, the story starts in Matthew 23 and continues on in Matthew 25. "This generation" clearly shows Jesus refering to those he is speaking to. Matthew 25 clarifies what "this generation" refers to. Its a continuation of chapter 24, which is a continuation of 23. Also, Matthew 24 states that those being talked to by Jesus will be witness to the end times.I'm glad you brought up that Jesus will return with his angels, bc Matthew 24 refers back to Matthew 16:27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."Obviously, it refers to the end times. When? During his disciples lifetime. How do we know? Some standing there will witness Jesus returning with angels and rewarding mankind for their deeds. How is it a leap of faith? The gospels have Jesus speaking to his disciples. Telling them "when". Jesus is not directing his words to you, but to those standing before him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Throughout the NT, over and over, its always the same. The return of Jesus is "right around the corner","near", "nearby", "soon" etc.. Only in apologetics does any of this mean thousands of years later. Absolutely correct...and yet wrong. Yes, the EXACT time is not known, but the time frame is. Jesus and Paul tells those they are speaking to-to look, be aware that the end times are upon them.
No sense in telling them such things if the end times were thousands of years in the future. Matthew 24, Jesus tells his disciples that "they will SEE" Jesus return. There is a reason they thought Jesus was returning during their lifetime...he told them that! Jesus did not say live as I have taught you and that the end times are far away. No, he told them to live as he taught them and that the end times are right around the corner, that they will see all the signs, they will witness his return.I could give you plenty more scripture to show the end times were near.... Never does any author in the NT state they are far off. Why is that? Its always around the corner, nearby.You did ignore two key points I brought up.Who is Paul addressingin Romans 16 and Phillipians 1?