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Author Topic:   dinosaur and human co-existence
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 271 (560321)
05-14-2010 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Peepul
05-14-2010 8:29 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Peepul writes:
Buz, that is not correct.
A flood would have no effect on any fundamental physical process. Radioactive decay rates would be completely unaffected by it.
You're repeating this falacy that my position implies a change in decay rates. Again, that is not my position.
If you're saying that the flood could have affected the composition of all the rocks we can now study, then I don't believe there's any evidence to support you.
Even if it did, the isochron dating methods we often use can detect this.
So we can say for certain, based on our current understanding of physics, that the flood would not invalidate dating
That's the kicker; our current understanding, which is solely relative uniformitarian.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Peepul, posted 05-14-2010 8:29 AM Peepul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Peepul, posted 05-14-2010 11:10 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 172 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-14-2010 4:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Peepul
Member (Idle past 5018 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009


Message 167 of 271 (560323)
05-14-2010 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Buzsaw
05-14-2010 11:05 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
quote:
You're repeating this falacy that my position implies a change in decay rates. Again, that is not my position.
Sorry, my mistake.
quote:
our current understanding, which is solely relative uniformitarian.
I don't understand what you mean here. If we leave decay rates out of the picture, what uniformitarian assumptions are being made that you object to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Buzsaw, posted 05-14-2010 11:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Meddle
Member (Idle past 1270 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 168 of 271 (560328)
05-14-2010 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
05-09-2010 11:04 AM


Re: Dino Serpents
Apatosaurus, having long legs, required bone structure in the neck and tail so as to manuver the neck and tail where as the type which it prototyped, being a belly crawler need none, the land surface supporting it's head and entire body. The similarities lie in the appearance of the dorsal, head and tail as previously noted.
The ribs in snakes attach to the thoracic vertebrae, just like in all tetrapods including apatosaurus. The neck and tail of snakes are actually very short, for example the tail vertebrae usually make up less than 20% of the overall length (and just to correct what I previously said, these vertebrae do not possess ribs). This shows that snakes evolved through the elongation of their body, not from an animal with a long neck and tail like Apatosaurus. Some species of snake retain remnants of the pelvis indicating how far along the body the legs were positioned.
Without legs, the snake skeleton must be flexible enough to allow movement for both locomotion and preparing to strike at prey. By contrast the Apatosaur neck only needs to hold its head up and, contrary to oil company logos or indeed 1920s movies, was fairly inflexible.
But it is amusing to see creationists fall back on some form of hyper-evolution to explain the shortfalls in their conjectures, whether its diversification of post flood 'kinds' or dinosaurs becoming snakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 05-09-2010 11:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Blue Jay, posted 05-14-2010 11:54 AM Meddle has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 169 of 271 (560330)
05-14-2010 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Buzsaw
05-14-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
a ww flood would have wiped them all out since only the non-dino types would have been on the ark.
Are you telling us the Bible was lying when it said, "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female?" Or did dinosaurs not have flesh?

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Buzsaw, posted 05-14-2010 10:59 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 170 of 271 (560331)
05-14-2010 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Meddle
05-14-2010 11:49 AM


Re: Dino Serpents
Hi, Malcolm.
Malcolm writes:
But it is amusing to see creationists fall back on some form of hyper-evolution to explain the shortfalls in their conjectures, whether its diversification of post flood 'kinds' or dinosaurs becoming snakes.
Buzsaw isn't arguing hyper-evolution: he's arguing that dinosaurs were transformed into snakes by a divine curse, which is very consistent in its appeal to supernatural and avoidance of any evolutionary mechanisms.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Theodoric, posted 05-14-2010 12:22 PM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 171 of 271 (560334)
05-14-2010 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Blue Jay
05-14-2010 11:54 AM


Re: Dino Serpents
In other words he is invoking the special mechanism that is the fall back position for all creationists; magic.
In order to give any credence to Buz's postion, one must give up all rationality and believe in magic. There is no need to show any evidence for this magic, all one has to do is accept it completely on faith alone.
Buz's position does differ from all other creationists, because the others base their reasoning on a a religious text of some sort. Buz does not see any need at all to follow the writings of any religious text. He just makes up random shit on his own.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Blue Jay, posted 05-14-2010 11:54 AM Blue Jay has seen this message but not replied

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4510 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


(2)
Message 172 of 271 (560356)
05-14-2010 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Buzsaw
05-14-2010 11:05 AM


Random reality.
Hi Buz,
Buzsaw writes:
That's the kicker; our current understanding, which is solely relative uniformitarian.
What do you mean by relative uniformitarianism? The way you're using this phrase, all I can think is that you mean "thinking that the world is understandable and consistant" as opposed to "believing that reality can change at random anytime God wants it to so who knows what anything means."
This is like two guys looking at a spoon on a table. The first guy says, "Hey, that's a spoon."
The second guy says, "Maybe that looks like a spoon, but that's just because you're assuming that it's a spoon. I think that it was a hamster yesterday."
"Why on earth would you think that this spoon used to b a hamster? That's a spoon. I used it to eat my Cap'n Crunch yesterday morning."
"That's just your interpretation of the evidence. My interpretation of the same evidence is that this might be a spoon today, but you can't prove that it didn't used to be a hamster, now can you?"
"But...."
"Besides, my Holy Book of Hamster says that there were no spoons before today. They all used to be hamsters. And you know, that spoon is round on one end and then it gets skinny. A hamster is round on one end and then gets skinny, too. I think that it's obvious that this spoon used to be a hamster."
"But...."
"You just deny hamsters because you hate God, don't you?"
And so on.
Edited by ZenMonkey, : No reason given.

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Buzsaw, posted 05-14-2010 11:05 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 3:15 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 173 of 271 (560359)
05-14-2010 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Buzsaw
05-14-2010 10:59 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Buzsaw writes:
Percy writes:
But let's get back to a more basic issue. Pretend you're preparing me for a debate on the flood where I'm to take the position that the dinosaurs still roamed the Earth 4350 years ago. What information are you going to give me so I can win the debate?
Relative to the dino topic here, a ww flood would have wiped them all out since only the non-dino types would have been on the ark. The flood debate, as I've alluded to in past threads, involves a significantly pre-flood non-uniformative planet and atmosphere. For decades I've been considering all of the ramifications of this concept. Preparing one for such a debate , like ToE, involves a lot more than one message on one topic thread.
So imagine I go first in the debate and open like this:
"Good evening ladies and gentlemen, my name is Percy, and tonight I'm going to explain how we know what happened to the dinosaurs.
"We all know the familiar tale of the flood and Noah's ark. God poured forth rain and geysers upon the Earth for 40 days and 40 nights and the entire Earth was covered by water for the better part of a year, and Noah saved all the animals on the ark. But what about the dinosaurs? We know from paleontology that dinosaurs used to roam the Earth, but there are no dinosaurs today. What happened to the dinosaurs?
"The reason there are no dinosaurs today is because some dinosaurs were transformed into lizards and snakes in the Garden of Eden when Eve gave Adam the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. The remaining dinosaurs lived until the flood, and then they died because they were not taken on the ark.
"Now, this may seem like an incredible story, but it's all true, and we know it is true because of the evidence that has been gathered over the years. I'm here tonight to present this evidence. I didn't uncover this evidence myself, but it was presented to me by a man far wiser than myself who has spent many years studying the problem, and tonight I'm going to present this evidence to you."
Now, Buz, what do I say next? What's this evidence?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Buzsaw, posted 05-14-2010 10:59 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 8:24 AM Percy has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 174 of 271 (560438)
05-15-2010 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Percy
05-14-2010 4:39 PM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Percy writes:
Now, Buz, what do I say next? What's this evidence?
The evidence is all that I have produced on this thread. That's it. Must I repeat it all, including the pictures from the link of the similarities? Some of it is the same evidence you cite for an alleged astroid wiping out one type of the reptiles while leaving the others to survive and thrive, i.e. that we observe the extinction of the dinosaurs. The evidence here at EvC, involves corroborating evidence for the credibility of the Biblical Genesis record, including the Exodus, prophecy and other, for that background foundational stuff becomes supportive to the premise of my thesis, just as you apply your entire education on evolution as supportive to each aspect of the theory.
What you're are requiring of me is like me asking you for evidence of an astroid wiping out the dinos 60 or so million years ago, factoring in a ww flood, i.e. providing evidence that fits my creationist science world view.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Percy, posted 05-14-2010 4:39 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Percy, posted 05-15-2010 9:07 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 176 by Coragyps, posted 05-15-2010 10:33 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 177 by Iblis, posted 05-15-2010 11:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 175 of 271 (560440)
05-15-2010 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Buzsaw
05-15-2010 8:24 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
Hi Buz,
I wanted to move ahead in small steps and should have made the the last part of my introductory comments more specific. Let me offer this additional paragraph:
"One of the most controversial claims of creation science is that dinosaurs lived as recently as 4350 years ago at the beginning of the flood year, but we have firm evidence that dinosaurs were living at that time, and I shall describe that evidence for you now."
Now, Buz, what do I say next?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 8:24 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 4:36 PM Percy has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 176 of 271 (560462)
05-15-2010 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Buzsaw
05-15-2010 8:24 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
What you're are requiring of me is like me asking you for evidence of an astroid wiping out the dinos 60 or so million years ago, factoring in a ww flood, i.e. providing evidence that fits my creationist science world view.
In seven years around here you have yet to start on just the worldwide flood portion of that, Buz. Your non-existant "corroboration" is all you ever trot out.
For Chixulub, we have a crater, shocked quartz in Nebraska, tectites, iridium, tsunami deposits....

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 8:24 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 3:37 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 177 of 271 (560472)
05-15-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Buzsaw
05-15-2010 8:24 AM


Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
What you're are requiring of me is like me asking you for evidence of an astroid wiping out the dinos 60 or so million years ago
Which ZenMonkey documented quite effectively in Message 135. The same evidence has been covered in detail in many many other threads, including here The astronomical impact on terrestrial evolution.
Your evidence consists of an unsupported interpretation of the phallic portion of the garden poetry, a stylized oil company logo misdepicting an animal that turned out to be so different from what we had thought at the time that it has since lost its name, two pictures of non-dinosaur reptiles looking reptilian, a bit of whining about the assumption of relative uniformity, and an unsupported interpretation of the memorial portion of the flood poetry.
The Ur flood raised the water level of the Tigris and Euphrates only 15 cubits Buz. That's 10-25 feet. Didn't create any genetic bottlenecks except amongst the royal dynasties of the city-states of Sumer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 8:24 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 271 (560494)
05-15-2010 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by ZenMonkey
05-14-2010 4:00 PM


Re: Random reality.
Zen Monkey writes:
What do you mean by relative uniformitarianism? The way you're using this phrase, all I can think is that you mean "thinking that the world is understandable and consistant" as opposed to "believing that reality can change at random anytime God wants it to so who knows what anything means."
I figured readers could figure that out for themselves; i.e. my alluding to a pre-flood atmosphere and planet surface in this and other threads, significantly different than post flood.
Factoring out a ww flood the planet and atmosphere for the last 20,000 years, as per ToE would be relatively uniform. Savvy?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ZenMonkey, posted 05-14-2010 4:00 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Coragyps, posted 05-15-2010 3:26 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 179 of 271 (560498)
05-15-2010 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Buzsaw
05-15-2010 3:15 PM


Re: Random reality.
Factoring out a ww flood the planet and atmosphere for the last 20,000 years, as per ToE would be relatively uniform. Savvy?
Your statement is unclear enough that I don't really know if I savvy it. But air bubbles recovered from multiple ice cores show that our atmosphere has been quite uniform for at least a couple of hundred thousand years. And the same ice cores show no trace whatever of thawing or seawater contamination in the last 200,000 to 800,000 years - different cores sample to older times. So why bother to even factor out a Floode that never was?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 3:15 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Buzsaw, posted 05-15-2010 4:01 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 271 (560500)
05-15-2010 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Coragyps
05-15-2010 10:33 AM


Re: Meteor Selective Wipeout
Coragyps writes:
For Chixulub, we have a crater, shocked quartz in Nebraska, tectites, iridium, tsunami deposits....
That's debatable.
Gerta Keller of Princeton University argues that recent core samples from Chicxulub prove the impact occurred about 300,000 years before the mass extinction, and thus could not have been the causal factor.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Coragyps, posted 05-15-2010 10:33 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by lyx2no, posted 05-15-2010 4:36 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
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