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Author Topic:   Eusebius the Liar? - Pious Fraud Endorsed to Advance Christianity
Thin Man
Junior Member (Idle past 5088 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 04-16-2010


Message 46 of 49 (556153)
04-17-2010 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dr Adequate
02-18-2010 7:48 PM


I would say the title fits. Even Euseibus himself admitted that lying was OK to advance the faith.
He uses this passage in Evangelical Demonstration Book (3) page 124:
"Certainly the attestions I have already produced concerning our saviour may be sufficent. However, it may not be amiss, if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness."
He forged the references to Jesus in the TF!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-18-2010 7:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

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 Message 47 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2010 1:29 AM Thin Man has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 49 (560272)
05-14-2010 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Thin Man
04-17-2010 5:22 PM


I would say the title fits. Even Euseibus himself admitted that lying was OK to advance the faith.
... no.
He uses this passage in Evangelical Demonstration Book (3) page 124:
"Certainly the attestions I have already produced concerning our saviour may be sufficent. However, it may not be amiss, if, over and above, we make use of Josephus the Jew for a further witness."
He forged the references to Jesus in the TF!
Evidence?
There are various things we might think about the Demonstratio Evangelica and the TF.
One is that Eusebius managed to forge the passage in Josephus such as to fool all his contemporaries.
Another is that someone else had previously forged that passage and Eusebius was his dupe.
A third is that the same person who interpolated that passage into Josephus also introduced the corresponding passage into Eusebius.
A fourth is ... ah, I can't be bothered, it gets a bit complicated at this point.
A fifth would be that the TF is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Thin Man, posted 04-17-2010 5:22 PM Thin Man has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2010 5:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 48 of 49 (560285)
05-14-2010 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Dr Adequate
05-14-2010 1:29 AM


I think that we can be sure that the TF as we have it now is NOT what Josephus wrote. It is obviously Christian ("if it be lawful to call him a man" ?) - Josephus was not a Christian - and there is no record of it before Eusebius, even though other Christian writers were aware of Josephus and there's no reason to believe that they would pass on mentioning something so obviously helpful to them.
(The idea that the Christian parts were interpolated rather than the entire passage being a fake is still possible, possibly by a scribe mistakenly including marginal notes. I do, however, wonder why - if that is the whole story - the passage was not quoted earlier, although this doesn't mean that the passage did not exist in some form.)
Still it's a jump to nail Eusebius as having forged the passage. It's a neat solution but reality often isn't that neat and tidy.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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 Message 47 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2010 1:29 AM Dr Adequate has replied

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 Message 49 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2010 4:25 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 49 of 49 (560357)
05-14-2010 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by PaulK
05-14-2010 5:00 AM


Agreed. My suggestion that it might be the real deal was for the sake of completeness only. It seems clear that the TF would not have been written by a non-Christian such as Josephus.

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 Message 48 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2010 5:00 AM PaulK has not replied

  
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