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Author Topic:   Self-sustained Replication of an RNA Enzyme
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 52 (559848)
05-11-2010 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by dcarraher
05-11-2010 4:31 PM


The definition of life is ...
Hi dcarraher, and welcome to the fray.
This explains alot, really. If you see no distinction between chemistry and biology, no line of demarcation that says "this is life" and "this is not", then abiogenesis is not an issue because the very word has no meaning - life is non-life, so no need to explain life from non-life.
Disqualified.
Ah, so then you have a definition of life that can always distinguish life from non-life ... what is it?
... or contain more information (or really any - if the RNA has more "information", what "information" does it have? ...
Now you can define how information can be measured and then we can see. Interestingly, without some mechanism or method for actually measuring the information content, your comment is absolutely useless.
One last try - Creationists don't AGREE with you on whether this experiment has value - that does NOT mean that they don't UNDERSTAND you, or are STUPID. I'm not certain the converse is true, but I'll cut you some slack.
Curiously, it does not matter one piece of ant frass in antarctica what you (or any other creationist) agrees with, it only matters what the evidence shows, and whether the evidence conforms with theory or invalidates it.
You are welcome to your opinion, however opinion has been found to be rather amusingly inept at changing or altering reality in any way.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by dcarraher, posted 05-11-2010 4:31 PM dcarraher has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by dcarraher, posted 05-12-2010 1:07 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 21 of 52 (560032)
05-12-2010 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by dcarraher
05-12-2010 1:07 PM


Re: The definition of life is ... try again ...
Hi dcarraher, thanks.
First some formatting tips:
First, a qualifier - in my responses, I will respond to multiple previous posters in a single post. This is not an indication that I am confusing who posted what, simply brevity for the sake of brevity.
No problem. for clarity you can use [qs=RAZD]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
RAZD writes:
quotes are easy
Then we at least know who the comment comes from.
You can further provide clarity by using the message ID number to link to the specific post -- it's the gray number in parenthesis at the top of the post. For example at the top of your post is:
Message 16 of 20 (559986)
So I can use [qs]dcarraher [mid=559986]: First, a qualifier[/qs] and it becomes:
dcarraher Message 16: First, a qualifier


Now that the formating issue has been addressed we can deal with the issue (or watch you continue to avoid it) of the definition of life ...
Ah, so then you have a definition of life that can always distinguish life from non-life ... what is it?
This is another excellent example of premise-conflict. I'm really astonished that evolutionists would care to argue that life is indistinguishable from non-life.
Amusingly, you have failed to provide a simple definition to distinguish life from non-life.
If you are really truly astonished, then it should be a simple matter to set us on the right path, and provide a definition that can be used that will always distinguish life from non-life: you must know one if you are really truly astonished.
If you cannot provide such a definition, then your astonishment is nothing more than your personal incredulity and opinion, both of which are useless in discussing this simple little issue.
So, dcarraher, what is your definition of life?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by dcarraher, posted 05-12-2010 1:07 PM dcarraher has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 05-12-2010 7:14 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 24 of 52 (560045)
05-12-2010 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Straggler
05-12-2010 7:14 PM


Re: The definition of life is ... try again ... (paging dcarraher ... )
Hi Straggler,
He is obviously not going to have one. The question is do we?
Maybe I'm an optimist, but I'll cut him some slack, (seeing as he is a noob to this forum) and give him another round to produce one .
There are things we can point to and all agree as being "life". There are things we can point to as not being life.
Which is what makes it so much fun to delve into an actual definition, because this seems to be such an easy question to answer at first.
And yes, I do have an answer, a fairly simple one.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : hidden

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 05-12-2010 7:14 PM Straggler has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 47 of 52 (560224)
05-13-2010 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by dcarraher
05-13-2010 1:38 PM


Re: The definition of life is ... STILL missing ...
Hi dcarraher, yes, I am still waiting for your definition of life.
I've cut you some slack to provide this definition as you are a newcomer to this forum.
The question is whether you can distinguish yourself from the usual IDologist\creationist ... by actually providing substantiation for claims made.
No - because you started with something that is unarguably "Life", and ended with more. In the RNA experiment, you started with RNA, which is unarguably "Not Life", and ended up with more "Not Life". QED - Experiments that start with non-life and end up with more non-life = irrelevant to abiogenesis.
And yet, amusingly, you still have not defined what life is. In order for you to claim that one thing is "unarguably "Life"" and that something else is "unarguably "Not Life"" you must have a definition that makes this "unarguable" distinction.
Yet it appears that you cannot define what life is, because you have not posted it, in spite of several requests to do so.
Note that this is a science forum and you are required to substantiate your claims.
Forum Guidelines
What is your definition of life that allows your to make an "unarguable" distinction between life and non-life?
Message 30 Because the experiment starts with something that is clearly non-life, and ends with more of something that is not significantly different. You started with the ability to replicate, and ended with the ability to replicate - you did not add the ability to replicate, nor did you add any other "life-like" characteristics. Ergo, irrelevant to the question of abiogenesis.
How do you know this without knowing what the definition of life is?
Still no definition of life ...
Message 34 Yes. Even those evolutionists who propose an RNA scenario for the origin of life are merely presenting it as a hypothesis. And within the Evolutionary community, it has many detractors who dismiss it as implausible. So, I'm not really stating anything that other evolutionists haven't, re whether self-replicating RNA is relevant to abiogenesis. If you'd care to argue the point further - take it up with them.
Still no definition of life ...
Message 35 Definition of Life
Ah ... finally addressing the issue?
I really have no response to those of who insist that biology and chemistry are so closely related that there is no difference. I'll have more to offer in the next post, but for this post, I'd like to quote physicist Paul Davies, in his book The Eerie Silence:
...
If I find the distinction between chemistry and biology to be pretty clear, at the very least I am not alone. Let's file this one under the heading of "agree to disagree", where you must admit that you are disagreeing with a significant portion of the evolutionary community, not just creationists and "IDiots".
Curiously, even thought the post is titled "Definition of Life" there is STILL no definition of life given.
Epic failure.
Message 39 Definitions and Measurements
A common thread running through the above posts is regarding the definition and measurement of such terms as "Life", "Information", "Chemistry vs. Biology", etc. One of the most common debating tactics of evolutionists is the demand that, not only must their opponent define and be able to measure these concepts, but that they have to do it on the evolutionist's terms - in a purely materialistic fashion. If they cannot (so the evolutionist argument goes), then they cannot use those terms to criticise evolutionist views.
Curiously, that is how science is done, with measurements and clearly defined terms.
Let me provide an example:
The sky is blue in my world.
Based on this statement, you can theorize that either I'm a happy guy, or the weather outside is nice, or both. This is "Information". It is not definable, or measurable, in materialistic terms. It is not constrained by or limited to or even contained in the material elements (LCD pixels?) that transmits the information. But it is definitely "Real" - the material universe has changed because of it. But according to the evolutionist, I would not be allowed to assert that the sky is blue, because I am not able to measure the information content of the message.
And IF you cannot measure and quantify the amount of "information" in a statement (or DNA or anything else), THEN you cannot say whether there is more, less, an increase or a decrease, ...
... and yet you have made these kinds of statements. Therefore you are either making stuff up, and telling falsehoods OR you have measured the things you have claimed to have quantified.
But according to the evolutionist, I would not be allowed to assert that the sky is blue, because I am not able to measure the information content of the message.
Nope.
You can assert that the sky is blue to your hearts content, what you cannot do is assert that the amount of information in your statement is more or less than the information in a claim that the sky is grey or black or a rainbow of colors or shades of red and orange.
All these statements are observations, and they do convey meaning.
Only if you want to claim that one has more or less information than another do you need to have a definition of information that you can quantify and measure.
It is the claim of more or less that requires quantification to substantiate.
Evolutionists don't have a large (or even a small) concern with the actual amount of "information" and whether it is more or less in one situation than another, because we are happily willing to consider that the amount of information can (and does) fluctuate, and we do not bind ourselves to simplistic thinking that it can ONLY decrease in one situation, or that condition {A} must have MORE than condition {B} - only IDologists and creationists seem to make this kind of silly claim (silly because they don't know the quantity that they base the claim on).
Just like you, apparently, don't know what life is that is quantitatively different from non-life.
Similarly, "Life" is qualitatively different than "Non-Life" even if not in a form that is measurable materialistically. To use an example that has been beat to death (sorry, bad pun), what is the difference between a live cat and dead cat? A quantum of time. Materially they could be exactly identical.
And -- hysterically -- you STILL have failed to define life.
So you've asked me to provide a "definition" and "measurement" of information, and life, or you will not accept my criticism of this experiment as not showing an increase in (non-material) information, or being irrelevant to the question of (non-materially-constrained) abiogenesis?
Yes, the definition of life specifically, because you made a claim:
Message 16 ... I'm really astonished that evolutionists would care to argue that life is indistinguishable from non-life. ...
This clearly implies that YOU are able to make such a distinction, and so you should be able to provide a simple definition.
IF you are incapable of providing such a definition, THEN we can all be highly amused that you would make such a foolish, careless, and silly statement, accusing others of not being able to do something that YOU cannot do.
Sorry, you've merely confirmed my assertion that EvC is mostly pointless because we cannot accept each other's base premises.
And yet, fascinatingly, you have FAILED to defined your "base premises" (life, information) so that we can even evaluate them in order to decide whether or not to accept them.
You cannot complain about any failure by anyone to accept information you have not provided.
As a P.S. - One of the posters above states that the RNA has information. My own opinion on the subject (speaking only for myself) is that "material information" is qualitatively different than "non-material" information. RNA has what I call material information - information that is a direct result of its physical/chemical properties. This is the kind of information that even a water molecule has. A Living Cell, on the other hand, has nonmaterial information contained in its DNA - e.g. how to build a protein. The ability to build a copy of itself is not a characteristic of its physical binding chemistry, it is a process that requires messengers and translators. Replicating RNA replicates because of its chemical characteristics, not because of the information it contains that can be interpreted.
And you have still FAILED to define how you distinguish these kinds of information ...
... you're just making stuff up.
Now, you can
  1. honestly concede that you do not have a definition of life that allows us to clearly distinguish life from non-life in ALL instances, or
  2. honestly provide a definition (that can be tested to see if it "unarguably" distinguish life from non-life in ALL instances), OR
  3. dishonestly continue to dodge the issue, in typical IDologist\creatiionist fashion (and then we will know that you are another typical IDologist\creatiionist that pretends to know things they don't know).
You're call.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by dcarraher, posted 05-13-2010 1:38 PM dcarraher has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 49 of 52 (560381)
05-14-2010 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by dcarraher
05-13-2010 2:35 PM


Side Notes - what's the difference
Hi again dcarraher, something else to think about (while you work on the issue of defining what life is, such that you can always distinguish it from non-life).
One of the posters above states that the RNA has information. My own opinion on the subject (speaking only for myself) is that "material information" is qualitatively different than "non-material" information. RNA has what I call material information - information that is a direct result of its physical/chemical properties. This is the kind of information that even a water molecule has. A Living Cell, on the other hand, has nonmaterial information contained in its DNA - e.g. how to build a protein. The ability to build a copy of itself is not a characteristic of its physical binding chemistry, it is a process that requires messengers and translators. Replicating RNA replicates because of its chemical characteristics, not because of the information it contains that can be interpreted.
Just to be clear on your position, you are claiming that RNA is not really any different than rock, correct?
Both have "material information - information that is a direct result of its physical/chemical properties" would you not agree?
I think you would also agree that rock does not have any "non-material information" so this would also be similar to what you claim about RNA.
Any problems with this?
My own opinion on the subject (speaking only for myself) is that "material information" is qualitatively different than "non-material" information.
Can you describe what the quality is that is present in "non-material information" that is not present in "material information" and where it is contained if it is non-material?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by dcarraher, posted 05-13-2010 2:35 PM dcarraher has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 51 of 52 (560492)
05-15-2010 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by dcarraher
05-13-2010 1:45 PM


another tid-bit
If you return, dcarraher, this is another tid-bit for you:
Because the experiment starts with something that is clearly non-life, and ends with more of something that is not significantly different. You started with the ability to replicate, and ended with the ability to replicate - you did not add the ability to replicate, nor did you add any other "life-like" characteristics. Ergo, irrelevant to the question of abiogenesis.
What is added is the ability to self replicate, which is not normally part of the RNA behavior in cells, nor in the process of viral reproduction, so yes indeed something has been added.
Of course this is not new\news to biologists, as there are many known self-replicating molecules.
Is this self-replication life? Until we have a clear definition of life it is difficult to say. Is a virus alive? Depends on your definition of life.
Is this self-replication a feature of life as we know it? Yes, it is common to all organisms during reproduction that all the elements of a cell are replicated.
This is something that rocks do not do. This makes self-replicating RNA more similar to the chemistry of DNA and cellular reproduction than to rocks.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : clrty

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by dcarraher, posted 05-13-2010 1:45 PM dcarraher has not replied

  
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