'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

Grabarger, I do not have time to write much this morning. But I read through your last posts. After looking up the definitions of attrition I had no idea what you meant by a me waging a battle of attribution, other than the fact that I won't simply give up to your view and say you're right.But anyway, in this little quote above the Transfiguration, Crucifixion, the Ascension, and Pentecost, I agree may not be the main subject of Christ's discourse in Matthew 16,24,24. But they are not that far removed either.He says for His disciples to pick up thier "cross" and follow Him (Matt.16:24). Does this not imply something about His crucifixion?What else is a cross for?He says that the gospel of the kingdom must be preached in the entire inhabited earth (Matt. 24:14). Does that not imply His intention to send them to do so as He did at Pentacost ?He says He is coming in the glory with His holy angels, shining and in splendour (Matt.25:31; 24:30). Doesn't that suggest His exaltation and ascension ?Sure it does. If He being a typical man standing on the ground is coming in the future on heavenly clouds with heavenly glory He had to first be taken up there. So the ascension is implied.While the transfiguration, crucifixion, Pentacost, and ascension are not the direct subject matter of His discourse. They are each implied.I would also point out that there are some indicators in His discourse that the disciples should not be too soon led to believe that that time has come:1.) "See that you are not alarmed, for it must happen; but the end is not yet." (Matt. 24:6)2.) "All these are the beginning of birth pangs" (24:5)3.) "But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved." (24:13)4.) And in Luke 17:22 Jesus tells them that first there will be a time in which they will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man. "And He said to the disciples, The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it." (Luke 17:22)Jesus therefore ALSO teaches that before those days of His second coming there will be days in which the disciples will long to SEE those days, and "WILL NOT SEE IT"I don't know if this is your alledged "battle of attrition" or not. But you should admit that Jesus Christ also tempered His prediction with psychologically preparing His disciples against expecting His coming TOO SOON.Must continue latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Matthew 16:27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."The transfiguration occured right after this.Please show me:1) The angels that were present.
2) Those standing before Jesus in Matthew 16 who died before they could witness the transfiguration.
3) Where it states Jesus rewarded mankind for their actions at the transfiguration.Thanks.

Jay, there is a huge difference between you and us in our debate. We, take scripture and use the entire chapter, context to support our argument. You take a verse and completely ignore the surrouding context. Here are a few examples in your last post. You left out all the crucial parts.9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.The disciples will be persecuted, with many false prophets deceiving people. This is to occur at the same time.20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again.Jesus is still talking to his disciples, not you, two thousand years in the future. Notice what it states, they the disciples have to take flight! When? During the great distress, which will be unequaled to any other time. This refers to the end times. It will NEVER be equaled again. So it cannot refer to 2000 years in the future. This event is to occur when the disciples take flight!29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.At what time? During the great distress. When is this to occur? Go back a lil: 15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniellet the reader understand 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.The desolution already occured. Jesus was not refering to 2000 years later. At the end times, the stars will fall out of the sky. Of course, this is an erroneous belief...but thats another story. The key point is that the stars falling will IMMEDIATELY occur after the the desolation! Did they? Nope. Its 2000 years later.Here is a huge key part:33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.Jesus states clearly that his disciples will witness all these events! When YOU see all these things....its right at your door! This again does not mean 2000 years later! Think about it. His disciples ask when the end times are to occur. Jesus tells them to be aware of the signs. Why tell his disciples to see the signs...if the signs were not to occur for over 2000 years??? Jesus adds after the signs, his return is right at the door! Again, another reference to it being immediate.Jesus clarifies everything by stating this was to occur during THIS GENERATION. Nowhere in the entire Bible does "this generation" refer to anything but the time frame being referenced.33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.Jesus refers to his disciples, YOU. For they will see all this. Jesus then clarifies by stating this was to occur during THIS GENERATION.This is so damning that apologists try to distort what "this generation" means. But in CONTEXT, its crystal clear.42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.Who is Jesus talking to? His disciples still. He tells them to keep watch. Again, why bother if his return is not for another 2000 years? He adds he might not know the exact day, but you should be ready. He will arrive when his disciples do not expect him! So Jesus again admits he is returning during their lifetime!Here is something very crucial. You brought it up. Matthew did not have chapters. Chapter 25 is a continuous narrative of the previous chapter.Chapter 25, Jesus continues speaking:1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.This refers back to the end times, so the story continues.Two parables are spoken of....both refering back to the end times.Then Jesus states:31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.This refers right back to Matthew 16, the angels coming, man being rewarded. This has nothing to do with his disciples if they're going to see the end times or not. You're taking a verse out of context. Notice what it states. They will long to see the DAYS of the son of man. In other words, Jesus is stating that his disciples will wish to be with him again on earth as they have been, but will not. The "it" does not refer to the end times, it refers back to "the days of the son of man".

You are interested only in a battle of attrition. You "reply" but don't really say anything other than the implied "I believe!!!!" and twisting scripture to try to fit your dogmatic theological view.In 1 Thessalonians, Paul continually counts himself among the "we" he mentions, and he is talking to a particular group of people, LIVING IN HIS OWN TIME.Nowhere is the rest of the passages of interest is there any indication that Paul has stopped talking about himself as part of "we", nor are there any indications that he suddenly stopped talking to only those who the letter is addressed to and to whom the entire rest of the letter addresses specifically and started talking to people some 2000 or more years in the future.You are forced to try to save Paul from being an apocalypticist, which is what his own words show him to be (sorry if you don't know what an apocalypticist is: maybe you should read up on it), so you make up putative changes in time and audience. A straight reading supports me and counters you. BOTTOM LINE:

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1. We have shown passages where Jesus indicates that the Son of Man will come, with His angels, etc.,

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(a) before some of those standing there with Him have tasted death (Matthew 16:24, 27-28)

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and

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(b) during the current generation. (Matthew 24:27, 30-34)

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2. You need to show us an equal number of passages where Jesus indicates that the Son of Man will NOT come, with His angels, etc. , until some 2000 or more years in the future. Until you do that, you lose. It's that simple.

quote:

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Matthew 16:27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
The transfiguration occured right after this.

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Please show me:

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1) The angels that were present.
2) Those standing before Jesus in Matthew 16 who died before they could witness the transfiguration.
3) Where it states Jesus rewarded mankind for their actions at the transfiguration.

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Thanks.

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One would think that that would end the matter, but as we've seen with Jay, it won't.

Do you think that this is just a coincidence ? Matthew, Mark, and Luke all follow this promise of the Christ with the transfiguration.WHY ??I believe that the transfiguration was a preview of Christ's coming in glory at the end of the age. His coming in His kingdom as promised includes this preview that a few disciples were previledged to witness AND His second coming.The way Matthew, Mark, and Luke preceed that transfiguration immediately with Christ's prediction about some standing and being living witnesses suggests strongly that they understood the event that way. No angels are mentioned in the transfiguration. We have Moses and Elijah and a majestic voice. And the absence of angels is not significant if we consider verse 28 not to be limited to verse 27 but to be larger in scope and include verse 27. Peter, James, and John were the disciples who did not taste death until they saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom, That is in its preview display as the Transfiguration.After the promise that some would be alive to see the Son of Man coming in His kindom we have Matthew jumping right into the transfiguration: "And after six days Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother and brought them up to a high mountain. And He was transfigured ..." (17:1) Is it a coincidence that the promise is immediately followed by those three disciples witnessing the transfiguration ?In Mark immediately after the promise that "some standing here who shall by no means taste death until they see the kingdom of God having come in power" Mark jumps right into the transfiguration as well: "And after six days Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up alone into a high mountain privately. And He was transfigured before them." Is it a coincidence that Mark follows the promise immediately with the transfiguration ? And we see some additional words - the three came up "alone" and were shown the event "privately".Then Luke also follows the promise immediately with the transfiguration: " ... some standing here who shall by no means taste death until they see the kingdom of God. And about eight days after these words ..."Please notice the deliberateness now displayed in Luke's account - "AND ABOUT EIGHT DAYS AFTER THESE WORDS ..."It is the previous WORDS concerning the standing and living witnesses of the kingdom of God. "He took with Him Peter and John and James, and went up into the mountain to pray. And as He prayed, the appearance of His face became different, and His garment dazzling white." In all three instances Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus conversing with Him. The writers of the Gospels certainly intend for us to associate this transfiguration scene and the two old testament prophets as: "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28)
"the kingdom of God having come in power" (Mark 9:1)
"the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:27) The event does not necessitate that they drop believing that the Son of Man will come at end of the age with His angels. The transfiguration does not mean that the second coming will not occur. Rather it is a preview of it.And to ignore how deliberately the evangelists place the event immediately after Jesus' promise to the contemporary discipes is to go against the spirit of the writers. Since the transfiguration was only a preview not all events associated with Christ closing the age occur at that time.It should also be pointed out that Jesus ALSO predicted His redemptive death and resurrection. "From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and on the third day be raised." (Matt. 16:21)Grab insists that there is nothing about the crucifixion in His discourse about His second coming. But I am curious. Does Grab believe Jesus was predicting His death and resurrection AFTER His second coming or before?I think He was predicting His rejection, death, and resurrection as occuring before His victorious glorious appearing to subdue the world. Does it make sense that after the glorified king takes control of the globe with His mighty angels, He is condemned and killed by the subjects of His own kingdom ?So a PREVIEW of His kingdom and His coming in glory was necessary to prepare the disciples for the tragic rejection and seeming defeat of His crucifixion. They needed to witness transfiguration to establish their faith against the coming onslaught of His total rejection by Israel.Christ and a select few of His disciples both witnessed a preview of the kingdom of God before they tasted death. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

In Luke 17:22 Jesus says: "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it."Could one of those days also consist of fleeing?
Could one of those days consist of persecution?
Could the Roman general Titus coming to destroy Jerusalem possibly have been one of those days ?In the last 2000 years where Christians have suffered for various reasons and longed for Christ to come immediately ... could those days also be days Jesus spoke of ?I think yes. Days will come BEFORE the coming of the Son of Man in glory, in which we disciples will long for His coming prematurely. We will desire to see one of His days and will not.Then the Lord says "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation" (Luke 17:25)I say again, if you do not want to be in the audience to hear the words of Jesus, that is your business. His word of encouragement, endurance, and promise speaks to many of us who DO desire to be His audience.Don't tell us "But Jesus was not talking to you".If heaven and earth will pass away before the words of Jesus will pass away then the words of Jesus are for anyone who has an ear to hear from now until the universe itself wears away.What is 2,000 years ? That's nothing. I am sorry for you if you have nothing so faithful and solid to base your hope on. Have you read the record of God keeping His promises in the earlier books of the Bible ?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

In the midst of His predictions of all the terrible things that will come upon the disciples and upon the world, Jesus warns that days will come BEFOREHAND.He does not say how many days. And Grab and Heretic have no authority to dictate that 2,000 years or 3,000 or more years is not allowed.It is simply "DAYS" . God will take what time God needs to take to work Himself into His people and constitute them saturated with His holy nature.I do not say that there is no sense of immediacy in the words of Jesus in Matthew 24. But with these words we have also words not to jump the gun concerning the end times: He also prepared His church for a potential long distance run.Grab's and Heretic's complaint really should be against the Gospel writers Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Had they understood that the words of Jesus were irrelevant to all but the immediate living audience present to hear Him, they should have never preserved the sayings for us.According to Matthew and John we get no impression that Jesus went away or is gone anywhere.Matthew closes his gospel that Emmanual "God with us" is "with us" until the consummation of the age however long that may take: "And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20) Does Matthew hang the final words of Jesus on His second coming? No. He closes with Jesus promising ALWAYS to be with His disciples. He never leaves them. His coming back is only His physical return. Throughout all the days He is EMMANUEL - God with us.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

We will deal with the parables in Matthew 35:1-13, 25:14-30, and the prophecy of 25:31-46 latter.All three argue against hERICtic's and Grab's opinion that Jesus did nothing to indicate that He was speaking ALSO to disciples in the future of some unknown span of time.For instance, in the parable of the faithful servants (25:14-30) Jesus speaks of the master of the servants coming back after a "long time". Why not a very short time ? "But he who had received the one went off and dug in the earth and hid his master's money.

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Now after a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them" (25:18,19) Why in this parable did Jesus specifiy that the master did not return to settle accounts until after "A LONG TIME"Who can dictate how "long" is "a long time". Who can say "a long time" cannot be over 2,000 years ?The business man, the master, may for the sake of reaping a good profit, take as long to return as he wishes.And Jesus Christ, in reaping spiritual profit in His people, may also choose to prolong His physical absence for more time, to reap more spiritual profit.Some disciples will be living at that time when He returns. Some will have fallen "asleep" in faith not having seen the second coming in their lifetimes.Why should we expect that this would be the case? It is obvious in John's gospel that it would be the case for John speaks of the resurrection of the believers. But how can we see in the synoptic gospels that it would be the case? If the Lord Jesus predicts that some disciples will be put to death (v.16) yet not a hair on their head will perish (v.18) the strong implication is that He will resurrect them from the dead.So we can expect that some saints in His audience will die, whether by natural causes or by persecution. Some will die soon. Some may die latter. But not a hair on their head will perish because EVERY believer in Jesus Christ will be resurrected from the dead eventually.In His discourse of His second coming, He speaks of disciples being alive. No matter how long He takes there will still be believers upon the earth alive when He arrives. He said in chapter 16 that the gates of Hades would not prevail against His builded church.So some will have died. And some will be living at His return.Now we take a brief look at Matthew 25. This teaching cannot be related to Christians. And it has nothing to do with resurrection.1.) It apparently is related to the nations or Gentiles THEN living when Jesus comes again. That fact that there are nations living when He returns does NOT insist that His return would not be 2,000 or more years latter from His discourse.2.) Neither the SHEEP or the GOATS knew the Lord. So the Lord's disciples are of neither the SHEEP or the GOATS. Rather His disciples are in the THIRD group. That is "THESE the least of My brothers".There are three catagories of people in the teaching.1.) Sheep of the nations, who did not know Christ but were kind to these the least of His brothers.2.) Goats of the nations, who also did not know Christ but were mean to these the least of His brothers.3.) These the least of His brothers.So the reward given to the sheep which has been prepared for them from the foundation of the world, is not the reward of men who follow Jesus.It is to men and women who did not KNOW Jesus but did not follow Antichrist to persecute the people who DID know Jesus. They listened to their God created conscience. They did not worship Antichrist as god. They instead listened to the God created conscience. This is predicted in Revelation 14 with the angel preaching from heaven an eternal gospel to fear God the Creator.Heretic's opinion is that the reward to the sheep is in response to this promise of the Lord Jesus: The sheep and the goats are repaid. There is no argument there. However, we cannot say that the rewarded sheep are rewarded because they denied themselves to follow Jesus. They did not know who Jesus was.... "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when have we seen You hungry and have fed You, or thirsty and have given You drink? And when have we seen You a stranger and have taken You in, or naked and have clothed You? (25:37-39) These "righteous" sheep of the then living nations, seem not to know anything about Jesus. They are not disciples of Jesus.By the same token, those goat of the nations seem not to know about Jesus too.That is all that I will write in this post. However, my point is that the reward of Matthew 25, though it be a reward, is not to be identified with the reward of Jesus to His disciples in Matthew 16:24-27).Now, remember, Jesus had said that the one who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. How these people treated the ones who were the leasts of the Lord's brothers, perceiving that they were innocent people of God wrongly persecuted and destituted, hungry, ill-clothed, and imprisioned, determines how the King will reward them. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Above I wrote this which needs some clarifying: Is the reward given to the sheep nations the prophet's reward or not?I believe that this teaching shows a people whom Jesus will reward to enter into eternal life who were not saved through the gospel of grace preached in the church age. As they did it to these the least of the Lord Jesus' brothers, they unaware were doing it to Jesus the King.The disciples of Jesus are with the group being well treated - "Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of these, the least of My brothers, you have done it to Me." (v.40)The rewarded kind sheep on the right hand of Jesus are not His disciples. But they were considerate TO His disciples down to the least of them His "brothers". I think this includes persecuted Jews also in the end times.Now if you will think about this logically for a moment it should make sense. Jesus promises to have His believers reign with Him in His kingdom over the globe. Who are they to reign over?It does not seem logical that they will reign over each other. So there must be a people left on the planet for Jesus and His rewarded disciples to reign over. Those people are the people living at the time of His second coming who are transfered from the age of the church into the age of the Messianic King.Not all living peoples will be transfered. But some who seem to have been considerate in the final days when the Christians and the elect Jews, the least of the Lord Jesus' brothers, are under the terrible persecution.These sheep nations are restored to the state of Adam before his fall. Adam was created with an everlasting life and was blessed to enjoy a kingdom from the foundation of the world. We know he relinquished that right when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.What is the difference between the SONS OF GOD who are reigning and the SHEEP nations over whom they are reigning ?The sons of God enjoy a blessing prepared for them from "BEFORE the foundation of the world " (Eph. 1:4) . But the restored sheep of the nations enjoy a blessing prepared since the creation of man, the blessing of " the kingdom prepared for you FROM the foundation of the world".The former is a matter of God's eternal purpose to have sons from before the creation of the universe. The latter is a matter of the "very good" earth prepared for an innocent and neutral man from the foundation of the world.Now, what follows is definitely preachy. So if you hate to be preached to you should stop reading here.==============================================
==============================================Okay. For all you who can stand a little preaching listen to me. Some of you dear beloved skeptics need to be careful. The day may come when you will have to take sides to join in to persecute Christians or stand aloof at your own risk and assist them.This may be a time when there are no Bibles to be found. Maybe they will all be burned. The world will polarize. You will have to take a stand to rid the earth of these Jesus types or realize that it is wrong to harass them.If you do not see that day perhaps your children will see that day. Be careful that you are not swepted away by a current of anti Christian hysteria. For the Antichrist will come on a flood of near universal resentment of God and Christ and the word of God.Listen again to the words of Jesus, this time on the negative side: The Bible says that in the end times those who are not marked with a certain mark of the Beast will not be able to buy or sell anything. This will be a time when those not coming under the Antichrist's government will be destitute, starving, sick, in prison, and refugees.There may be a hysteria about [b]"We will rid the earth once and for all of these God and Jesus people. We will starve them out. If they don't want this government this planet is not rightfully theirs. They should not buy or eat or sell or have benefit of medicine and they should be confined and put in prison."The resentment towards Christians is growing, especially in Europe where the Antichrist is likely to arise.This teaching of Matthew 25:31-46 should be considered a extra warning. Be careful how you treat the Lord's brothers. Be careful how you treat even the least of them.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
The transfiguration occured right after this. Coincidence on what? The transfiguration has nothing to do with the the scripture I gave. You have no evidence to support this at all. In fact, you're only ignoring the actual evidence presented.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Please show me:
1) The angels that were present. It is significant. Jesus gives three things that are to occur when he comes into his kingdom. Three specific things. Yet the transfiguration does not mention such an amazing occurence.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------2) Those standing before Jesus in Matthew 16 who died before they could witness the transfiguration. Its not a coincidence! You're saying bc an event follows another event they must be linked! Why do you keep bringing up all three mentioned it. IF the transfiguration actually occured, then they are explaining this event. Its a pretty big event. So of course they would mention it. But you seem to forget, Matthew and Luke copied from Mark. They're both just retelling the same story that was already written down in Mark.But you missed the crucial point. NONE DIED. Jesus stated SOME will be alive of those standing there...which means SOME have to die. No one did. So it cannot refer to the transfiguration. But it certainly backs up what Jesus stated in Matthew 24, that they will be hunted and some will flee before the end times.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------3) Where it states Jesus rewarded mankind for their actions at the transfiguration. You completely missed the point. You're claiming it refers to the transfiguration. Jesus states mankind will be rewarded. Was mankind rewarded at the transfiguration? No.Jesus is quite clear when this "reward" will be given. As per Matthew 25 and Revelation, when he returns, at the end times.I am at a loss as to what you mean by "coincidence". A coincidence refers to something similiar or the same.Yet Jesus gave three specifics, when he comes:1) Angels.
2) Some standing in front of him will die before they witness this event.
3) Mankind will be rewarded.NONE of these things occured. There isnt anything similiar about it.

Jay, you're doing it again. You're focusing on one word or verse and ignoring the actual context. The story is meant to show that mankind is responsible for using their resources/abilities so that they increase in value. Its a parable though. So its unclear what a "long time" is. Remember, a parable is a story meant to convey a point. The main point is to use your talents that god have given you.Yet everytime "near", "nearby", "around the corner","knocking at your door" etc.. are used regarding the end times, its not a story. Its not a parable. It the author conveying the time frame. None of those convey a long period of time. None. Wow. It have EVERYTHING to do with his return. Matthew 16 and Revelation clearly state when Jesus returns it will be with his angels.31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.So yes, the above does talk about his return. The sheep and goats are mankind, those who have followed Jesus and those who have not. Absolutely untrue.34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'What does it say Jay? First, it mentions the inheritence, which is heaven. So again, yes, it refers to the end of the world. Second, obviously these people know Jesus bc Jesus states they invited him in, fed him, gave him drink!41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'Here again, referencing the end times. Only those AFTER the end times will go to hell. Those who have perisehed before do not reside in heaven or hell. They "sleep". Its at the end times when god will choose which way one goes. Jesus is referencing those who ignored him, who cast him aside...and now they're being punished.Jay, how can you honestly state that Matthew 25 does not refer to the end times??You're skipping all over the place trying to salvage this huge mistake.Matthew 10, Jesus states his disciples could not possibly go through all the towns of Israel before he returns!Nothing im Matthew 16 even hints its the transfiguration. The signs are given, all three apply to the end times.1) Those disciples in front of him, some will be dead and some will be alive when he returns.
2) Angels will arrive with him.
3) Reward mankind.This concurs with Matthew 25, which backs up Revelation.In all three instances, angels will arrive and mankind will be judged.Matthew 24 clearly states his disciples would witness the signs, that they would be persecuted and flee.Matthew 25 clearly states when Jesus returns, it will be with his angles and he will seperate those who followed him and those who cast him aside.Mark 14:Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?"62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."Did the high priest see Jesus during the transfiguration? Every single time Jesus states "coming on/with clouds" it refers to his return.Jesus tells the high priest he will also witness his return. So again, a time frame is given.

The transfiguration is not only the next thing recorded in all three gospel. But the link is established in all three cases by telling us the number of days, actual or approximate. "AFTER six days ..." (Matthew 17:1)
"AFTER six days ..." (Mark 9:2)
"And about eight days AFTER ..." (Luke 9:28)And I think Luke is the most obvious link because Luke says "And about eight days AFTER THESE WORDS" (my emphasis) specifying that the next event followed the particulat WORDS of Jesus on some "be no means" tasting death "until they see the kingdom of God"It puzzles me why hERItic cannot grasp that Luke intends the transfiguration to be a specimen of "the kingdom of God".And why not. Jesus had taught the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was in their midst. And Jesus was in their midst! "And when He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said. The kingdom of God does not come with observations; Nor will they say, Behold, here it is! or, There For behold the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." (Luke 17:20,21) The meaning seems to be that as Jesus was in their midst the kingdom of God was in their midst. Likewise, on the mountain of transfiguration three trusted disciples witnessed the Christ in their midst with the glory of God breaking through the hidden concealment of His flesh. The threefold repetition of the sequence and the stress in Luke that it was "AFTER THESE WORDS" is the evidence.You have no explained as of yet that it is more likely coincidental.The rest of this section of Eric's reply is his objection that ALL of the details mentioned in connection with the end of the church age are not occuring on the mountian of transfiguration. We simply differ on the significance of this.The Lord's words were "until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" in Matthew 16:28. All three synoptic gospel then specify an event that occured a certain number of days latter.The specified interval of time, I take, as not coincidental but deliberate to establish the link between His promise and His transfiguration. When Peter reviews the transfiguration He highlights what He considers the most important aspects of it: " ... we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus hrist, but we became eyewitnesses of that One's majesty.

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For He received from God the Father honor and glory, a voice such as this being borne to Him by the magnificent glory: This is My Son, My Beloved, in whom I delight, And this voice we heard bbeing borne out of heaven whle we were with Him in the holy mountain" (2 Peter 1:16-18)Those objecting cannot deny that the Apostle Peter associates this transfiguration experience with "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" .If it was not the entire "power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" was a preview, a specimen of "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Chrust".It should be obvious that the Apostle Peter is confirming that he was one of those who was alive to be a living witness of the preview of "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom".Yes, Peter mentions no angels at that time. And also Peter mentions what was NOT mentioned by Jesus, the majestic voice saying that Jesus was the Beloved Son of God. But making a fuss about these details is not seeing the forest for the trees. They got a glimpse of the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. That is precisely my point. The link is established between Jesus' previous words and the transfiguration by the specificity of the number of days between.That is not coincidental. That shows the relationship between the promise and the transfiguration. And the specifying of the names of the three disciples as witnesses also shows the connection is deliberate. I am saying that in this instance, the association is pretty obvious. They not only mention it. They mention it with a link to His promise. It should be most evident in the account of Luke - "And about eight days AFTER THESE WORDS, He took with Him Peter and John and James."It is not simply mentioned benighly next. It is pointed out that it was after THESE WORDS on the promise of Jesus that some standing by and living would see, in Luke's account, "the kingdom of God". This is not terribly significant to get into, IMO. It is not that easy to reconstruct who copied who. While it is generally agreed that Mark wrote first it is also peculiar that Luke says the two events were separated by ABOUT EIGHT DAYS whereas Mark and Matthew mention SIX days. And Luke's account seems that he is elaborating on some additional details about Christ's praying. Is it not true that verse 28 about some "standing here who shall by no means taste death until ..." was fulfilled by Peter and James and John being alive to see the transfiguration?The fact of some others dying or not dying six days latter does not make it less true. I think your complaint really has to be against the Gospel writers who arranged the account the way they did for the reader and with the associative phrases. In a court of law I think this would not hold. All would die before the second coming. Some would be alive to see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom as a preview. The rewards of the kingdom for denying the self and following Christ were not at that time given. You are insisting that they have to be. I believe that they have to be eventually. They do not have to be for the foretaste, the preview of the Lord's glorious coming in His kingdom. This is like the relationship between the state of California and the United States. Everyone in California is in the United States. But not everyone in the United States is in California.The scope of the state is smaller than the scope of the country. Yet it is contained in the entire country. The coming of the Son of Man in His kingdom is larger in scope than the second coming. It includes the transfiguration on the mountain.In this analogy the Coming of the Son of Man in His kingdom is like the United States. And the second coming at the end of the church age is the state of California.The Coming of the Son of Man in His kingdom contains both the event on the mount of transfiguration and the second coming of Christ obviously some thousand some years latter. I meant that the synoptic gospels seem deliberately to link Christ's promise about some standing and living to see something special WITH the event on the mountian six days latter. (ABOUT eight days after the words according to Luke).I am saying that mentioning of the intervening time is deliberate and not coincidental. But there is the Son of Man coming in His kingdom in the transfiguration event. Peter, James, and John, three trusted discples of the inner circle witnessed a preview of the glorified Christ with Moses and Elijah.It is not that difficult to see this as a PREVIEW. In modern terms we might discribe it as a trailer. A sneak preview of the end of the age.And there is little getting around that the Apostle Peter writes of it in that way in His second epistle.In the same epistle Peter says that the believers are also "partakers of the divine nature" (1 Pet. 1:4) They are not to be simply spectators of the divine nature. They are to be participants and partakers of that divine nature.So Peter understands that God is still working our His plan that the glory in Christ is to be wrought into the disciples. God is taking the time from the PREVIEW to the END of the age to wrought Himself into His people. That is to dispense His divine nature into their beings that they may not only shine with God but live with God.This living by the divine nature needs many many years of testing from every angle that its quality and approvedness may be manifested. So Jesus did not end the age immediately.We are still in the stage of Him dispensing His divine nature into man. That is all I will say about that now.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Jay,For some strange reason, you think bc it states:"AFTER six days ..." (Matthew 17:1)
"AFTER six days ..." (Mark 9:2)
"And about eight days AFTER ..." (Luke 9:28)...that it must mean the words of Jesus in Matthew 27 refer to the Transfiguration. A time frame is being given. Just like it states how many days before Passover, which is when his death occured.I have said this many times, you pick and choose what scripture you want to use, you bounce around grabbing verses out of context....while ignoring the entire time what the context actually states.I have shown you EVERY time "coming on clouds" is used it refers to the return of Jesus.I asked if the high priest witnesses the transfiguration? Jesus clearly states to him he shall see Jesus coming on clouds.You have presented no evidence at all that the Transfiguration is beign referenced by Matthew 16:27. None.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But you missed the crucial point. NONE DIED. This is actually frightening. Jesus is speaking to those in front of him and SPECIFICALLY states that some will die before they see Jesus coming in his kingdom. Yet you keep stating the events are linked when NONE died! No matter how you twist it, Jesus states:One or more of those standing in front of me will be dead before they see Jesus coming in his kingdom.Yet none died. This is crucial. It cannot be the transfiguration. Yeah, in an apologetic court of law! Again, Jesus gives three specifics in Matthew 27. You need it to refer to the Transfiguration.ALL THREE of those specifics did not come to pass.Angels did not appear.
Those standing there did not die.
Mankind was not rewarded. Of course they have to be! Some standing there will not be alive to witness this event! All were for the transfiguration. Remember Jay, context.Back up a lil.21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.Jesus starts to preach about his death.24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life[h] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?Jesus is now talking about saving ones soul.Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."The context is Jesus is to die, save mans souls, and reward mankind when he returns.Your version is that Jesus is to die, save mans soul then shifts the story to the transfiguration. It does not make sense and destroys the flow the story. Its out of context.Simple question:When Jesus returns, will he:1) Come with angels?
2) Will some of his disciples be dead before he returns?
3) Will he reward mankind?

I am expounding a portion of a parable related to the subject of the second coming of Christ. Not all mankind is the servant of Jesus Christ. So it relates to His servants which are His believers.The unbeliever is not the servant of Jesus. Right. And one of the points is that of endurance because the Master took a long time to come back. This is another discussion I sense beginning. And I would discuss it with you. But right now I only wish to emphasize that the whole human race is NOT the servants of Jesus Christ trading with His talents.The parable is about His disciples, those who believe into Him as Lord and Savior. The unbeliever does not own Jesus as his or her Master.The parable is not about all mankind. It is about that portion of mankind who has embraced Jesus as their Lord and Master. They serve Jesus. Mankind in as a whole does not. Yet He came to save all and be Savior of all. But all will not believe into Him or live unto Him to serve Him.This parable is not about Jesus settling accounts with those who have rejected Him for themselves as their Master. So how many years is not "near". And by what authority do you pronounce that so many years is not "nearby"?The parable I was expounding consists of the words from verse 14 to 30. Context is important. And your reference to "near" I think goes back to the previous chapter.All well and good. The parable should be considered in context. No problem. But who are you to dictate that a certain number of years cannot be "near" in God's mind ?There is no way, I think, that you can deny that in the same discussions about the nearness of Christ's second coming, there are also words which equip the believers for a possible long distance race.Otherwise, why would the Lord in His parable say that the master returned after a long time ? Whether short in man's eyes or long in man's eyes He still seeks the quality of spiritual life. And that I think you overlook in favor of pinpointing a timetable calender. The reward to the sheep and the goats is about HOW they treated the Christians. In that regard it is about how Christians were treated not about how they acted.And there is absolutely no mention of resurrection in the teaching of Matthew 25:31-46. When it says He gathers the nations He means the nations LIVING at that time. He will divide them into the sheep and the goats.Christ is the judge of the living and the dead (1 Peter 4:5; Acts 10:42; 17:33; 2 Tim. 4:1)Here in Matthew 25:31-46 He is judging the living. This is not the last judgment recorded in Revelation 20. That judgment of all the dead happens 1,000 years after the judgment of the living goats and sheep.You're problem probably is that you have an over simplified view of the judgments of God and Christ over different catagories of people. There is more than one judgment. And Matthew 25 is the judgment of the nations living at the time of the establishing of His millennial kingdom from Jerusalem.One thousands years latter at least is the great white throne judgment of Revelation 20. Yes. No. The ones who followed Jesus are the third group His brothers --"these the least of My brothers". The sheep and the goats are non-Christians who are judged according to how they treated the brothers of Jesus.If they are the brothers of Jesus, they would not have opportunity to do good because they are sick, in prison, naked, ill treated.So the sheep and the goats are outsiders to the household of Christian faith. The last three and a half years of this age are a time of transition. In this transition stage some are justified not according to the gospel preached for instance by Christians but by another criteria.I will not elaborate more on this now. Suffice it to say that the Christians are the brothers down to the least of them. And the sheep and the goats are outsiders to the household of Christian faith. What is examined is how they TREATED the members of the household of faith, the brothers of the Lord Jesus.Now I do not understand everything about this teaching. But I think I understand that this is not the same as a judgment upon man according to whether or not he believed into the Savior and Lord Jesus.We are told in Revelation 14 that at the end of this age when Antichrist insists that he is God and puts down every religion, the angel in the air will announce an eternal gospel. And the contents of that eternal gospel is about God the Creator. See Revelation 14:6,7.A supernatural announcement during those days must neutralize Antichrist's declaration that he is god. The Christians will be refugees, harassed and under terrible persecution.It is my firm opinion at this time that Antichrist will have a sphere of enfluence from which refugees will be fleeing. Other nations will accept or reject them. And I think that how they treat them will be important to how Jesus decides the destiny of these peoples in His earthly kingdom.At any rate, the judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 is not about His reward to His disciples but His reward to those according to how they treated His disciples. Explain why it is "absolutelu untrue". He does not say "Blessed of YOUR Father" which would argue for them being His spiritual brothers. Rather is blessed of "My FAther"Adam was a created man from the foundation of the world. The creation was to be enjoyed by Adam and his descendents.These sheep nations are to be restored back to the state of the created Adam before the fall of Adam. The ones ruling over them are the sons of God who are the ones with the "organic" and spiritual life of God to be God's sons.This is a little involved and requires more time and space. When Saul (Paul) persecuted the church, Jesus said, "Why do you persecute ME" Paul got the revelation that the church of Christ consisted of all His members as the corporate Christ. They were and are collectively Jesus Christ. So Jesus said that to persecute the church was to persecute HIM. "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" In Matthew 25 we can see that to persecute the Lord's brothers down to the least of them is along the same principle. What they did or did not do to the people of Christ was what they did to Christ. So He says as they did or did not do to THESE the least of His brothers, they did to Him.This is therefore not the reward or punishment to the brothers. It is the reward or punishment to how the ignorant treated the brothers.This unbelief is probably based on ignorance of who Jesus Christ was rather than on rejection of who He was. What they did they had no idea that it was being done or not done to Jesus. So the teaching argues for their ignorance of Jesus rather than their familiarity with Him. I agree that it references the end times. That is the end of the church age. What is to follow this judgment is not the eternal age but the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.Read Revelation 20. Then read the first verses of Revelation 21.
Before the age of eternity there is the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. And this judgment conducted from the throne of Christ's glory in the holy land is at the beginning of that period.The last judgment of all the dead is in Revelation 20. And that is at least 1,000 years latter.Your eschatology is crude and more simplistic then what the Bible teaches. In the teaching the ones who represent the Lord's brothers down to the least of them may include resurrected believers, But the sheep and the goats are just those nations living on the earth at the time of His second coming.qs
Jay, how can you honestly state that Matthew 25 does not refer to the end times?? [/qs]I never said that exactly. But whatever you misunderstood me to say let me make it clear.At the close of the church age, at the end of the great tribulation will take place Christ's judgment of the nations that are left alive to witness His second coming. In that sense it certainly is a passage about the end times.But, the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world for the saved sheep is exactly that kingdom of 1,000 years spoken of in Revelation 20. And that is followed by the last judgment of the great white throne of all the dead. And that is also the time in which the age of eternity is brought in. See Revelation 21 and 22.You need to read carefully Revelation 20, 21 and 22. So Matthew 25:31-46 is part of the end times. But no so much the "end" that it is not followed by a millennial kingdom and a last judgment at the great white throne.No one said that the Bible is always simple. That's your erroneous opinion. Your eschatology is simplistic, crude, and elementary.You cannot even tell that all of mankind are NOT the servants of the Lord Jesus.You seem to be trying to make a Humanistic view of the Gospels. In such a view the EKKLESIA does not exist. And you probably teach about the brotherhood of man as all being servants of Jesus.This is way off. Are you a Universalist or a Unitarian ? I'll return probably to re-reply to this latter. It should not be ignored. I do not evade difficulties. But I did speak to this before. And we are doing quite a bit of repetition.Good morning. The sun is coming up now where I am. Been up with you since 3:00 something AM.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.