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Author Topic:   Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
hotjer
Member (Idle past 4544 days)
Posts: 113
From: Denmark
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 91 of 607 (561153)
05-19-2010 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Peg
05-18-2010 11:36 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
EDIT: Reply to ICANT
I think I already did come up with a very good argument to why Moses did not write the Torah. To me, the difference seems to be that I have an informed opinion and you just have an opinion, and you deny the (few) evidence I just provided you. Anyways, I will try to provide you with more information on the subject.
If Moses did write the Torah we would expect consisten content, e.g. regarding the revelation of God’s name; the point is not that different sources use different name of God, but that the different sources have a different idea of when the name of YHWH was first revealed to humans. Referring to the generation before the flood, the source we identify as J says explicitly: Then it was begun to invoke the name YHWH — Gen 4:26. We can even track the use of God’s name YHWH back to Gen 4:1 where Eve names Cain. However, when we look at the sources as we identify as E and P it is stated just as explicitly that YHWH does not reveal his name until the generation of Moses. In Genesis YHWH instead tells Abraham that his name is El Shadday, thus:
YHWH appeared to Abram and said to him, I am El Shadday. (Gen 1:17)
and when YHWH speaks to Moses in Exodus the text says:
And God spoke to Moses and said to him, I am YHWH. And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El Shaday, and I was not known to them by my name, YHWH.
Furthermore, the source identified as J never uses the word God (Elohim) in narration without a sine exeption in the Masoretic Text. In the Torah the names YHWH, El, and the word God (Elohim) occur more than two thousand times, and the number of exceptions we fin in this picture is three. Frankly; if you now say the names of God do not prove anything I bet my right eye you just do not want to acknowledge the phenomenal fact.
I could still provide you with more arguments, it just that there are a heck lot of evidences for the documentary hypothesis.
I did not say anything about the creations in genesis, but what the heck I will try to say something about that too since you eager for it.
Gen 2:4 first part: These are the records of the skies and the earth when they were created is the first of ten uses of the phrase these are the records of, with the function to introduce both narratives and lists when two different sources occurs. They are the work of the Redactor (R) as a way of editing the source text of Genesis into a continuous story. This formula is original derived from the Book of Records Gen 5:1.
Gen 2:4 second part: In the day that YHWH God made earth and skies. The text now changes, always referring to God’s name YHWH eleven times, but YHWH God only occurs in the introductory chapter and nowhere else in the Pentateuch.
The source we identify as P (Gen 1:1 — Gen 2:3) begins with the skies and the earth (Gen 1:1) and the source we identify as J begins with the earth and the skies , the reversing order. It is not proof of anything, but it is notable since these five words reveal the sources perspectives. P is more heaven-centred while J is more human-centred. Furthermore, the combining of the sources produced provide a more transcendent conception of God in P which merges with the more personal conception in J. The combined conception of God as cosmic and the God of your father has been a central element of Judaism and Christianity.
I hope my answer satisfies you despite English not being my first language.
EDIT: Reply to ICANT
Edited by hotjer, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Peg, posted 05-18-2010 11:36 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 1:28 PM hotjer has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 92 of 607 (561170)
05-19-2010 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by ICANT
05-19-2010 2:25 AM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
ICANT writes:
So the following things had to happen in the light period God created the heaven and earth in and it could not have happened in multiple light periods as the text is specific.
what do you mean by the light period and when (which verse) are you saying was the light period?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 2:25 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 1:59 PM Peg has replied

hotjer
Member (Idle past 4544 days)
Posts: 113
From: Denmark
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 93 of 607 (561176)
05-19-2010 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by ICANT
05-19-2010 2:25 AM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
See my respond

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 2:25 AM ICANT has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 94 of 607 (561191)
05-19-2010 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
05-18-2010 6:39 PM


Re: typical ICANT
I can get along fine without verses and chapters as far as understanding what is written.
Where by "understanding" you mean: "making up stuff that still fits with the words", right?
Anyone can believe anything they want to believe but that does not make it so.
You say that a lot... yet its quite a worthless thing to say. On one hand, you just can't be correct for then, if you wanted, you could believe that you are a gay black jewish klansman... so can you do that?
No, you must mean that you are free to believe what you want. But that's never been contended here...
So what are you really saying? I see it as: "Neener-neener, I don't care what you say, I'm gonna stick to my beliefs regardless because I can if I want to." How childish!
On that note if you have and opinion why don't you take my affirmations and rebut them. Maybe we could both learn something.
I already have:
quote:
Your view requires the listing of people at the end of Gen. 4 and the listing of people which immediately follows in Gen. 5 to be completely different people even thought they have the exact same names in the same order, presented back-to-back from one chapter to the next.
For your made-up apology to be correct, the Bible has to be this jigsaw puzzle that you have to chop up and reshape the pieces so you can fit them back together. Rather than the order we've all come to understand, ICANT's version has a chronology like this: Gen 1:1 then Gen 2:4 through Gen 4:26 then Gen 1:2 through Gen 2:3 then Gen 5.
It turns god into a bumbling idiot who can't even get his own book right. Certainly he was capable of inspiring the people who decided on where the chapter divisions should be, no? Why accept Moses's inspiration but not another's? Because it doesn't fit with your apology?
You pick and choose which things about the Bible you believe, because you have to deny some things to keep your story straight. For you, whether or not someone was inspired by god depends on whether or not they go with or against your own personal made up story. Even within one source, you'll accept one of their things and reject the other.
You've come up with something you think keeps the Bible from being wrong, but you have to twist it so much that its not even the same Bible anymore. Plus, you have to go against a lot of factual knowledge we do have to maintain it.
That's having an a priori story that you have to shoehorn the Bible into. That's not how you're supposed to do it. You're supposed to start with the Bible and then get the story from it. And if we're honest, it turns out that some of the things the Bible says are incorrect. But that's only a big deal to people who's house-of-cards faith rests on that literal inerrancy.
Like I said, its ridiculous... More worthy of ridicule than any actual consideration.
That's why it stands as refuted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2010 6:39 PM ICANT has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 95 of 607 (561204)
05-19-2010 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ICANT
05-18-2010 8:55 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
My assumptions are based on what I affirmed using the text of the KJV Bible.
The fact that you think it is "affirmed" rather than simply stated, asserted, suggested or even metaphorically implied is the root of the problem here.
If you disagree that the KJV says what I affirmed then rebut my affirmations or assumptions as you put it.
Do I need to rebut anything if the bible seems to "rebut" itself?
ICANT is it possible that the bible is simply telling the same story twice in ways which are inconsistent? On what basis do you reject this seemingly obvious conclusion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2010 8:55 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 3:29 PM Straggler has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 96 of 607 (561228)
05-19-2010 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by hotjer
05-19-2010 4:41 AM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi hotjer,
hotjer writes:
I think I already did come up with a very good argument to why Moses did not write the Torah. To me, the difference seems to be that I have an informed opinion and you just have an opinion, and you deny the (few) evidence I just provided you. Anyways, I will try to provide you with more information on the subject.
You came up with the reasons you believe Moses did not write the Torah.
Exodus Exd 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book, and rehearse [it] in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
Exodus Exd 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Deuteronomy Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
I take it from these verses God commanded Moses to write things that were to be put in a book.
You know Moses spent 40 days in the Mount with God I wonder if they were playing chess all that time.
hotjer writes:
If Moses did write the Torah we would expect consisten content,
Why would you expect any such thing?
If we had the originals then you could expect such a thing.
But we do not have the originals, we have copies of the copies of the copies, of the copies, of the copies, of the copies, of the copies, of the copies and I probably left out some. So man has been fooling with the Word of God for over 3500 years. Have you checked what they have done to it in the last 50 years through man's enlightenment?
hotjer writes:
This formula is original derived from the Book of Records Gen 5:1.
Do you have evidence to support this assertion?
hotjer writes:
Gen 2:4 second part: "In the day that YHWH God made earth and skies." The text now changes, always referring to God's name YHWH eleven times, but "YHWH God" only occurs in the introductory chapter and nowhere else in the Pentateuch.
The source we identify as P (Gen 1:1 — Gen 2:3) begins with "the skies and the earth" (Gen 1:1) and the source we identify as J begins with "the earth and the skies" , the reversing order. It is not proof of anything, but it is notable since these five words reveal the sources perspectives. P is more heaven-centred while J is more human-centred. Furthermore, the combining of the sources produced provide a more transcendent conception of God in P which merges with the more personal conception in J. The combined conception of God as cosmic and the "God of your father" has been a central element of Judaism and Christianity.
Do you think I am nieve enough to believe that man has not interjected his beliefs into the Bible over the past 3500 years?
Why was it accepted for over 3000 years that Moses wrote the Torah but then rejected in the 1700 hundreds. Are we that much closer to the originals than they were?
hotjer writes:
I hope my answer satisfies you despite English not being my first language
But what does any of your objections or arguments have to do with what I affirmed in the OP?
In Message 1 I stated:
ICANT writes:
In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2.
In this thread the KJV, LXX and Hebrew text will be used.
The Bible will be the final authority as that is what we will be discussing.
I defined what I would be affirming.
I defined the parameters wherein they would be discussed.
So your objections are just that your objections.
If you want to refute that the KJV Bible says what I have affirmed that it says take my presentation and go verse by verse and refute it.
From Message 52 here is what I am affirming the creation story in Genesis chapter 2 is.
ICANT writes:
Moses writes:
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
I know from this verse that the following things are the history of the creation of the heaven and the earth in Genesis 1:1.
I know from Genesis 1:1 That the heaven and the earth was created in the beginning. It was already in existence when Genesis 1:2 took place. Therefore it was not created during the 6 days described in Genesis 1:2-31.
Verse 4 of chapter 2 is the beginning of the history of what happened in the day (light period) the heaven and the earth was created.
I know from verse 5 there was no life on earth. There was no man, plant, tree, or herb of the field and it had not rained on the earth.
I know from verse 6 God caused the earth to be water from a mist that came from underground.
I know from verse 7 the first life form on earth was man that God formed a man of the dust of the ground.
I also know God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and that man became a living being.
I know from verse 8 Eden existed and God planted a garden eastward in Eden. God then put the man in this garden.
I know from verse 9 God caused every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food to grow. He also provided the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
I know from verse 10 that a river went out of Eden to water the garden. After watering the garden it divided into 4 rivers.
I know from verses 11-14 some information about these rivers. I don't know the purpose of these verses.
I know from verse 15 that God gave the man He had formed from the dust of the ground a job. He was to dress the garden and keep it.
I know from verses 16 and 17 that the man was told he could eat of every tree of the garden except he could not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
I also know that he was told if he did eat of that tree he would die the same day. It does not say if God explained what death was but since God is just He had to explain it to the man.
I know from verse 18 God said it was not good for man to be alone and He said He would make him an help meet.
I know from verse 19 God formed every animal and every fowl from the ground. He then brought them to the man to see what he would call them.
I know from verse 20 the man gave names to all cattle, all fowl, and the beast of the field. But God had not made a help meet for the man yet.
I know from verse 21 God removed a rib from the man.
I know from verse 22 God cloned a woman from the rib He had taken from the man, and brought her to him.
That concluded the creation events recorded in this history. But there is much history left.
I know from verse 23 that the man said this is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh and that she would be called woman.
I know from verse 24 the man said because of this man will leave home and cleave to his wife and they shall be one flesh.
I know from verse 25 they were naked and were not ashamed. They lived in perfect inn once.
I know at this time there had been no water creatures created.
I know at this time there is no mention of seas.
I know that this is the record of what happened in Genesis 1:1 as Genesis 2:4 declares that it is.
Thus I have described here a creation that is covered in Chapter 2.
In Message 36 I said:
ICANT writes:
I know from verse 1 the heaven and the earth was (bara) created.
I am affirming that the following is the creation story in Genesis chapter 1 beginning with verse 2 and ending with verse 31 as nothing was created on the 7th day.
I know from verse 2 it had become uninhabitable as it was covered with water.
I know from verse 3 God caused light to be on the earth. It says nothing about Him (bara) creating the light. He just made it visible.
I know from verse 4 God divided the light from the darkness. It was dark on half of the earth and light on the other half of the earth.
I know from verse 5 God called the light day and the darkness night. It also tells me a light period and a dark period equals one day.
The light period of Genesis 1:1 and the dark period that ended with the light period of the second day was declared the first day.
I know from verse 6, 7, and 8 that God separated the waters from the uplifted waters and called that atmosphere heaven. This is where the birds and our airplanes fly.
I know from verse 8 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the first day and ended with the light period of the third day was the second day.
I know from verse 9 that God caused all the water to gather in one place and let dry land appear as it is shown in my avatar.
I know from verse 10 that God called the dry land earth and the water sea.
So far nothing has been created only rearranged.
I know from verse 11 that God had the earth bring forth grass, herbs, and fruit trees, from their seed which was upon the earth.
I know from verse 12 that the earth obeyed and produced grass, herbs, and fruit trees.
I know from verse 13 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the second day and ended with the light period of the fourth day was the third day.
I know from verse 14 and 15 that God caused visible lights in the heavens to be for signs and seasons, days and years and to give light upon the earth.
I know from verse 16, 17 and 18 that God caused two great lights to be visible on earth one to rule the day and one to rule the night. He also caused the stars to be visible on earth.
Still nothing has been (bara) created they were only made visible on earth.
I know from verse 19 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the third day and ended with the light period of the fifth day was the fourth day.
I know from verse 20 that God caused the waters to bring forth water creatures and fowl to fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Still nothing (bara) created.
I know from verse 21 that God (bara) created great whales.
The first thing created that was not created in Genesis 1:1.
I know from verse 22 that God blessed them and told them to multiply and fill the waters and the fowl to multiply on the earth.
I know from verse 23 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the fourth day and ended with the light period of the sixth day was the fifth day.
I know from verse 24 and 25 God called the living creature, cattle, creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind. That means they had already existed to come forth after their kind.
I know from verse 26 and 27 that God (bara) created mankind in His image male and female He created them. Did He create 2 or a thousand there is no way to know as the scripture does not say. He gave mankind dominion over the creatures on earth.
I know from verse 28 God blessed them and told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it.
I know from verse 29 that God told them they could eat of every herb bearing seed and every tree that yielded fruit with a seed. No fruit of any tree was forbidden to mankind.
I know from verse 30 that the fowl of the air and every thing that creepeth on the earth that every green herb was given for meat.
I know from verse 31 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the fifth day and ended with the light period of the seventh day was the sixth day.
According to Webster affirm means 1 a : validate, confirm b : to state positively.
Rebut means to contradict what I have affirmed that the KJV Bible says. To do so you are limited to the KJV Bible for material to rebut what the KJV Bible says.
It makes no difference what anybody says or thinks it says only what is recorded in the KJV Bible counts. It does not make any difference who wrote it. It does not make any difference when it was written.
I specifically designed this in a debate format as I was tired of a free for all discussion in every discussion here at EvC. I hear a lot of people mention this is a debate board. It is not a debate board it is a platform where everybody shouts their opinions on every kind of subject imaginable.
I thank Percy that he has provided such a platform.
It just seems no one is interested in debating as they are only interested in preaching.
Care to debate?
If so take what I presented above and the words from a KJV Bible and rebut what I presented. You can find a KJV Bible
Here
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by hotjer, posted 05-19-2010 4:41 AM hotjer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by hotjer, posted 05-19-2010 3:03 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 97 of 607 (561231)
05-19-2010 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Peg
05-19-2010 6:20 AM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
what do you mean by the light period and when (which verse) are you saying was the light period
I have affirmed Genesis 1:5 says "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."
This verse says: God called the light portion day.
This verse says: God called the dark portion night.
This verse says: God called the combination of the light period and dark period as a day.
That kinda puts a crimp in your definition of a day.
Now to answer your question.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
This verse says the heaven and the earth was created in a day.
The earth existed inthe evening when darkness came in Genesis 1:2.
That means the earth and heavens was created in a light portion.
So Genesis 1:1 took place in the light period mentioned in Genesis 2:4.
All the things in Genesis 2:5-25 was accomplished in that light period according to the words in Genesis 2:4, as they are a story of a creation in chapter 2.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Peg, posted 05-19-2010 6:20 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-19-2010 3:10 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 108 by Peg, posted 05-19-2010 10:52 PM ICANT has replied

hotjer
Member (Idle past 4544 days)
Posts: 113
From: Denmark
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 98 of 607 (561237)
05-19-2010 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ICANT
05-19-2010 1:28 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Uff, wall of text!
I have not read the whole thread and I simply saw you wrote you believe Moses did write the Torah, which in my opinion is incorrect, and therefore I responded. I did not have any intention to discuss whether there are two creations or not, but tried to show you the difference in the writing style of the two creations, to support the opinion that Moses did not write the Torah. It might be off-topic, but as I said, I saw you wrote you believe Moses did write the Torah. If you have no further interest in discussing this subject, then simply tell me after this respond.
Exodus 17:14 and Exodus 34:27 differs in writing style. Exodus 17:14 share the same writing style as E which we first encounter in Gen 20:-1-17 and most of Gen 21-22. Exodus 34:27 share the same writing style as J which we first encounter in Gen 2:4 (without the first line: these are the records of the skies and the earth when they were created.
You are taking the passages out of context and therefore it is probably difficult to differentiate between the writing styles. By taking a look at the Deu 31:25:26 you should read from Deu 31:24-27. I could point out the same thing about the other passages you refer to. But the main problem is we do not speak about the same thing.
What I am saying is; according to linguistic evidence, we should not think Moses wrote the Torah, but according to you; the Torah tells us Moses wrote the Torah and therefore Moses wrote the Torah. Personally, I do not like that kind of logic since the writing styles tell us something different and we need to assume both; Moses did have about eight different writing styles (according to the documentary hypothesis) and what he is telling the truth. You did say we use the Bible as the conclusion and I did not, just with another approach than you did, and I came to a different conclusion supported by evidence.
You ask me why we do expect consistent content. Here I assume Moses do not contradict himself. Furthermore, it is human nature to have a personal writing style — not eight different. I have already giving examples of few contradictions.
You ask me about whether I have evidence to support the assertion that This formula is original derived from the Book of Records Gen 5:1. And here I must refer to linguistic evidence again. Gen 5 is of a different source than any of the other sources (J, E, P, REJ, Dtn, Dtr1, Dtr2, R) and the genealogical different:
Gen 5: Seth, Enosh, Cainan, Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech
Other: Cain, Enoch, Irad, Mehuya-el, Metusha-el, Lamech
Obviously they have a lot in common and also indicating a common, more ancient source.
You ask me why it was accepted Moses did write the Torah for over 3000 years?
3000 years have not passed yet, but small detail. But honestly, I cannot know for sure. I guess they simply wanted to believe that Moses wrote the Torah. But as I have pointed out, already in the eleventh century CE scholars found sentences that was not consistent with that idea. You should tell me why you still think it was Moses. If you circle around the same explanations I might answer to things; you assume the bible tells the truth, or; you are inconsistent in your argumentation.
Anyways, I do not think I object to the fact that there are two creations, but I simply object that it was the same author. I could go on if it really interest you, but I think I just will end it with the reason why the documentary hypothesis is a very good argument: The strongest evidence establishing the documentary hypothesis is that several different lines of evidence converge.
A lot of time to use on something you might not answer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 1:28 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 4:17 PM hotjer has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 607 (561239)
05-19-2010 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ICANT
05-19-2010 1:59 PM


inconsistency
Now to answer your question.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
This verse says the heaven and the earth was created in a day.
The earth existed inthe evening when darkness came in Genesis 1:2.
That means the earth and heavens was created in a light portion.
Yet in Message 96 you wrote:
quote:
If we had the originals then you could expect such a thing.
But we do not have the originals, we have copies of the copies of the copies, of the copies, of the copies, of the copies, of the copies, of the copies and I probably left out some. So man has been fooling with the Word of God for over 3500 years.
Just thought I'd point out another example of your inconsistency.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 1:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 4:25 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 100 of 607 (561249)
05-19-2010 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Straggler
05-19-2010 12:02 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
The fact that you think it is "affirmed" rather than simply stated, asserted, suggested or even metaphorically implied is the root of the problem
Simply stated and asserted is affirming that the KJV Bible records a creation in Genesis chapter 1 verses 2-31, and a creation in Genesis 2:4-25.
I presented verse by verse what the KJV Bibles says in chapter 1 and 2. You can stand on your soap box and declare your objections for any reason you desire.
But if you want to state, assert or affirm the KJV Bible says anything else other than what I presented you need to take what I have said the KJV Bible says and compare it to the actual writings found in the KJV Bible showing me where I did not understand what it says. That is what rebuttal is.
Straggler writes:
Do I need to rebut anything if the bible seems to "rebut" itself?
I can not find anything in Chapter 1 or Chapter 2 that rebuts what is written in those chapters.
I am affirming that there is a creation recorded in Genesis chapter 1 verses 2-31.
I am affirming that there is a creation recorded in Genesis chapter 2 verses 4-25.
I presented a verse by verse presentation of what I know from each verse.
If you disagree with what I say it says you need to rebut my statements.
Straggler writes:
ICANT is it possible that the bible is simply telling the same story twice in ways which are inconsistent? On what basis do you reject this seemingly obvious conclusion?
Obvious to whom, a layman, a atheist, a Bible scholar just who is it obvious too?
To answer your question NO.
Genesis 2:4 states the following things are the history of the day that God created the heaven and the earth.
There was no water creatures created.
Man was the first creature created even before any plants or vegetation of any kind.
This man was formed from the dust of the ground and God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living being. There was only one formed from the dust of the ground.
Every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air was formed from the ground.
The man formed from the dust of the ground named the creatures.
God then took a rib from the man from which He made a woman.
This man was placed in a garden and told he could eat the fruit of all the trees except one.
There is no age recorded anywhere for this man or his son Cain and any of his descendants.
The only body of water mentioned was a river that divided into 4 rivers.
Genesis chapter 1 verse 2-31.
Earth covered with water.
Land mass in one place.
The earth brought forth all vegetation from the seed that was upon the earth.
Water creatures was created.
The earth brought forth the living creature after his kind.
God created mankind in His image male and female. There is no way of tell how many were created.
These people were never placed in a garden.
They were told they could eat the fruit of all trees nothing was forbidden.
They were told to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.
Examining all these differences there is no way the two stories could be the same story.
Please remember I am not affirming or rebutting anything anyone may believe about these scriptures. I am only examining the two chapters verse by verse to find out if they record two creation stories.
I then affirm that there are 2 stories in the 2 chapters.
So if you can add or explain anything that is recorded in Genesis chapter 1 and chapter 2 in the KJV Bible present it now.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Straggler, posted 05-19-2010 12:02 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Straggler, posted 05-19-2010 7:20 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 101 of 607 (561259)
05-19-2010 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by hotjer
05-19-2010 3:03 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi hotjer,
hotjer writes:
Torah. If you have no further interest in discussing this subject, then simply tell me after this respond.
I tried to narrow down what the scope of this thread would cover by my OP. Here at EvC we tend to cover the entire spectrum at one time and therefore never accomplish anything.
As far as my affirmations is concerned it makes no difference by whom or when Genesis chapter 1 and 2 was written.
I am affirming only what is written in chapter 1 and chapter 2 of the KJV Bible.
hotjer writes:
I guess they simply wanted to believe that Moses wrote the Torah
Or maybe it was because they knew he wrote it and just passed that knowledge down.
hotjer writes:
You ask me why it was accepted Moses did write the Torah for over 3000 years?
3000 years have not passed yet, but small detail
Moses died in 1445 BC. It is now 2010 AD I think you could squeeze 3000 years in there if my math is anywhere near correct you could get 3455 years between those numbers. I could be wrong.
hotjer writes:
You ask me why we do expect consistent content. Here I assume Moses do not contradict himself. Furthermore, it is human nature to have a personal writing style — not eight different. I have already giving examples of few contradictions
I asked that question because we do not have the clay tablets that Moses wrote on when God told him to write the things he had been told.
We only have copies of copies of copies etc you get the idea.
Those copies were made by mankind and they are no different from the men today who are continually changing the Word of God.
Anyway in this thread I would like to keep it to 2 creations in Genesis. One in chapter 1 verse 2-31 and the other in chapter 2 verse 4-25.
hotjer writes:
The strongest evidence establishing the documentary hypothesis is that several different lines of evidence converge.
So the musings and conjectors of some men today concerning something they do not have in their posession is evidence, of what they believe happened over 3455 years ago. That reminds me of the version I hear all the time of how the universe began to exist when it and no thing existed prior to its existence.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by hotjer, posted 05-19-2010 3:03 PM hotjer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by hotjer, posted 05-19-2010 4:50 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 102 of 607 (561262)
05-19-2010 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by New Cat's Eye
05-19-2010 3:10 PM


Re: inconsistency
Hi CS,
Catholic Scientist writes:
Just thought I'd point out another example of your inconsistency
They why don't you point out some inconsistencey.
I am affirming what the KJV Bible says nothing more or less.
It makes no difference who wrote it.
It makes not difference when it was wrote.
It makes no difference what texts it was translated from.
It makes not difference whether it is true or false.
So if you could get off your hight horse and climb down off your soap box maybe you could examine what I affirmed the KJV says and point out my inconsistencies in my presentation.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-19-2010 3:10 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-19-2010 4:28 PM ICANT has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 103 of 607 (561263)
05-19-2010 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ICANT
05-19-2010 4:25 PM


Re: inconsistency
So if you could get off your hight horse and climb down off your soap box maybe you could examine what I affirmed the KJV says and point out my inconsistencies in my presentation.
Message 94
The important part:
quote:
For your made-up apology to be correct, the Bible has to be this jigsaw puzzle that you have to chop up and reshape the pieces so you can fit them back together. Rather than the order we've all come to understand, ICANT's version has a chronology like this: Gen 1:1 then Gen 2:4 through Gen 4:26 then Gen 1:2 through Gen 2:3 then Gen 5.
It turns god into a bumbling idiot who can't even get his own book right. Certainly he was capable of inspiring the people who decided on where the chapter divisions should be, no? Why accept Moses's inspiration but not another's? Because it doesn't fit with your apology?
You pick and choose which things about the Bible you believe, because you have to deny some things to keep your story straight. For you, whether or not someone was inspired by god depends on whether or not they go with or against your own personal made up story. Even within one source, you'll accept one of their things and reject the other.
You've come up with something you think keeps the Bible from being wrong, but you have to twist it so much that its not even the same Bible anymore. Plus, you have to go against a lot of factual knowledge we do have to maintain it.
That's having an a priori story that you have to shoehorn the Bible into. That's not how you're supposed to do it. You're supposed to start with the Bible and then get the story from it. And if we're honest, it turns out that some of the things the Bible says are incorrect. But that's only a big deal to people who's house-of-cards faith rests on that literal inerrancy.
Like I said, its ridiculous... More worthy of ridicule than any actual consideration.
That's why it stands as refuted.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 4:25 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 8:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

hotjer
Member (Idle past 4544 days)
Posts: 113
From: Denmark
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 104 of 607 (561265)
05-19-2010 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ICANT
05-19-2010 4:17 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
quote:
Or maybe it was because they knew he wrote it and just passed that knowledge down.
They cannot know for sure, afterall, some came up with the idea that Moses did not write it. You assume they know; how can you know if we do not assume the bible tells the truth?
quote:
Moses died in 1445 BC. It is now 2010 AD I think you could squeeze 3000 years in there if my math is anywhere near correct you could get 3455 years between those numbers. I could be wrong.
Ah you are thinkng of that. I am thinking of when the different sources in the Torah as we can identify it. Just to sum something up:
The following sources is dated according to;
* The Hebrew of J and E comes from the ealiest stage of biblical Hebrew
* The Hebrew of P comes from the later stage of the language
*The Hebrew of the Deuteronomistic texts comes from a still later stage of the language
*P comes from the earlier stage of Hebrew than Hebrew of the book of Ezekiel (which comes from the time of the Babylonian exile).
J and E: around 922-722 BCE with J connected to Judah and E to Israel when they was divided into two kingdoms.
P: around 715-687 BCE in the time of Hezekiah, king of Judah
D: around 640-609 BCE in the reign of Josiah, king of Judah
Of course, when I use these data, it has not been over 3000 years since then.
You will probably still say that mankind have interjected their believe into the Torah, and there we do agree, but we do not agree on how they did. I say they manipulated the text rather simple change a thing here and a thing there, and also that Moses did not write it. The oldest sources we have is what the documentary hypothesis' analyze is based on. Furhter thouhgts on whether or not Moses did write the Torah we cannot know for sure. As the evidences look like, it seems unrealistic that Moses did write the Torah. We might speculate that Moses wrote the Torah, but that does not support at as a good argument for such opinion.
Regarding the origin of universe is a whole other story. However, I can give you a hint: you probably have a misunderstanding of the term nothing when it is used in relation to astronomy (I assume you are not a supporter of a natural explanation of how the world came into existence).
Should we end it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 4:17 PM ICANT has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 105 of 607 (561289)
05-19-2010 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ICANT
05-19-2010 3:29 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
ICANT it seems obvious to numerous theistic and atheistic observers that the bible is simply telling the same story twice in ways which are inconsistent. On what basis do you reject this seemingly obvious conclusion?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 3:29 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2010 8:56 PM Straggler has replied

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