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Author Topic:   'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 196 of 479 (560921)
05-18-2010 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by jaywill
05-18-2010 5:54 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
Jay, the problem with our debate so far, is that we're bouncing all around. I have given quite a few verses throughout the gospels, in no particular order. You're defending your stance by jumping around. So it tends to get confusing.
Lets try this in order.
Matthew 10:
15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Does this refer to the end times? If no, explain why.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by jaywill, posted 05-18-2010 5:54 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by jaywill, posted 05-18-2010 10:35 AM hERICtic has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 197 of 479 (560974)
05-18-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by hERICtic
05-18-2010 6:48 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
Jay, the problem with our debate so far, is that we're bouncing all around.
I do not consider refering to other passages as necessarily "bouncing all around". Below you refer to Matthew 10. I have no objection to that and do not accuse you of "bouncing all around."
On a case by case basis I examine the merits of your reference.
The crux of the disagreement is really basically that you maintain the Matthew 16:27 and 16:28 are precisely equivalent. And on that basis you reject the transfiguration on the mount as have anything to do at all with Christ's promise in Matthew 16:27.
We disagree on that point.
I have given quite a few verses throughout the gospels, in no particular order. You're defending your stance by jumping around. So it tends to get confusing.
Lets try this in order.
Below you refer to Matthew chapter 10. You have been speaking mainly of Matthew 24 and First Thesselonians 4:17. Some reference to Matthew 25 you have made. I do not react by accusing you of jumping around. I am happy to consider your scriptures on the basis of their relevancy to the issue.
I in turn have brought in some passages which you have probably never considered before.
Matthew 10:
15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
17"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Does this refer to the end times? If no, explain why.
I think verse 23 is a strong point in your favor. However, at present I think if Jesus did not have His second coming in the first century the problem is most likely not on the side of Jesus. The problem is on the side of the reluctant disciples who though being told to preach to all the cities of Israel and everywhere else, failed to do so.
So while I agree that verse 23 may argue for a first century second coming of Jesus, the blame for it not occuring is more likely on the shoulders of the gospel preaching disciples.
Paul said that he labored more abundantly than all the other apostles (yet it was the grace of God within him, he said). His comment suggests that he was more given to the great commission to spread the gospel.
If verse 23 was a promise that Jesus would have His second coming in a few months or years, then if it did not happen, the disciples must have not adaquately held up their end of the arrangement.
He had also told them to preach in Judea, and Samaria, and in all the earth. They did not go out on their own. God had to force them to spread by allowing fierce persecution to drive them out of Jerusalem.
Let me ask you a question now. And don't say it is not relevant. You have been quite a stickler on the words of Jesus and their fulfillment. So do you believe that as He said, He would rise from the dead?
Do you believe in a resurrected and living Jesus Christ today?
Please do not recuse yourself or reply that it is not relevant or otherwise offer some excuse for dodging the question.
We are talking about the validity of the words of Jesus Christ here. Are you selective in that regard? Or do you put the same amount of emphasis on His teaching about His death and resurrection ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by hERICtic, posted 05-18-2010 6:48 AM hERICtic has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 198 of 479 (560981)
05-18-2010 10:55 AM


I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Does this refer to the end times? If no, explain why.
I think it refers to His second coming.
So where does that leave us:
1.) He came and we don't know about it.
2.) He lied.
3.) He was mistaken.
4.) He actually never said it.
5.) He changed His mind.
6.) It is yet to be fulfilled.
7.) The praying disciples asked Him to give them more time, and He did.
8.) Jesus Himself was humanly limited and the Father had not revealed to Him that many more Isrealite cities would be built in the future.
I think these are the only explanations I can suggest at the moment.
Given the resume and track record of God in His dealings with man in the Old Testament, I am persuaded that whatever the explanation it should not be that the Son of God was lying.
It is probably something to do with some conditions for His return not adaquately being matured yet.
He has to come back FOR something. He is discribed as the Bridegroom. This Bridegroom is coming back for a mature woman and not a teenage girl. (The church is discribed as His bride and wife).
Something in the maturity of His people must yet to be developed to entice Him to come back. This is a matter of spiritual warfare. And though there may have been a set back, we are assured of the eventual victory of Christ over the gospel opposing forces.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 199 of 479 (561050)
05-18-2010 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by hERICtic
05-18-2010 5:37 AM


When Jesus returns
hERICtic writes:
Simple question:
When Jesus returns, will he:
1) Come with angels?
2) Will some of his disciples be dead before he returns?
3) Will he reward mankind?
1) Jesus will come with His armies (Rev 19:14 & 19), whatever that may consist of. According to Matt 13:41 & 49, angels are used at this time by the Lord Jesus to gather stumbling blocks, those who commit lawnessness, and the wicked for judgment.
2) All of the disciples living at the time of Christ died. Many living today may still be alive when Our Lord Jesus returns.
3) The Lord Jesus rewards the righteous who "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matt 13:43).
Blessings
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by hERICtic, posted 05-18-2010 5:37 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by hERICtic, posted 05-18-2010 8:30 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 200 of 479 (561095)
05-18-2010 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by John 10:10
05-18-2010 3:22 PM


Re: Transfiguration?
Does this refer to the end times (refering back to Matthew 10)? If no, explain why.
Jay writes:
I think verse 23 is a strong point in your favor. However, at present I think if Jesus did not have His second coming in the first century the problem is most likely not on the side of Jesus. The problem is on the side of the reluctant disciples who though being told to preach to all the cities of Israel and everywhere else, failed to do so.
You lost me. So you're saying bc of the disicples, Jesus did not return? If that is the case, then the Bible is wrong. You're giving a reason as to why...then saying its not a mistake bc there is a "valid" reason.
You admit it refers to the end times, then gloss over it.
Jay writes:
So while I agree that verse 23 may argue for a first century second coming of Jesus, the blame for it not occuring is more likely on the shoulders of the gospel preaching disciples.
Do you see your error?Jesus tells his followers to go from town to town. He tells them in some places they will be welcomed and in others they will have to flee. He then proceeds to tell them before they can go through all the towns, he (Jesus) will return.
Jay writes:
If verse 23 was a promise that Jesus would have His second coming in a few months or years, then if it did not happen, the disciples must have not adaquately held up their end of the arrangement.
You're ignoring the context again. Jesus is telling them to preach from one town to the next and then adds:
23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
The context is that before they can complete their task, Jesus will return.
You're making the story to say the disciples will not do as Jesus states, so they didnt go through all the towns, they're now dead and since they couldnt go through all their towns, Jesus can return at any time.
You're butchering the entire context to save an obvious problem.
Jay writes:
Let me ask you a question now. And don't say it is not relevant. You have been quite a stickler on the words of Jesus and their fulfillment. So do you believe that as He said, He would rise from the dead?
Do I believe he said he would rise from the dead? Not sure. I believe a man named Jesus existed. I believe in many instances he may have said something similiar (the authors were not present)...but as to which statements, I do not know.
Jay writes:
Do you believe in a resurrected and living Jesus Christ today?
What I do believe is that there are many who are so scared of death that they have convinced themselves that the Bible is true.
The concept of dying and never "existing" again is too much to bear, so heaven is needed.
Jay writes:
We are talking about the validity of the words of Jesus Christ here. Are you selective in that regard? Or do you put the same amount of emphasis on His teaching about His death and resurrection ?
There are many error and absurdities in the gospels. This thread dealt with one obvious aspect. Its a debate site. So I debated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by John 10:10, posted 05-18-2010 3:22 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2010 5:45 AM hERICtic has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 201 of 479 (561168)
05-19-2010 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by hERICtic
05-18-2010 8:30 PM


Re: Transfiguration?
Jay writes:
I think verse 23 is a strong point in your favor. However, at present I think if Jesus did not have His second coming in the first century the problem is most likely not on the side of Jesus. The problem is on the side of the reluctant disciples who though being told to preach to all the cities of Israel and everywhere else, failed to do so.
You lost me. So you're saying bc of the disicples, Jesus did not return?
There is a relationship between the readiness of the people of God and the fulfillment of prophecy. From the standpoint of a skeptical unbeliever like yourself, God should just be a machine. And lifelessly, prophecy should just fall out Nostradamus style with no regard to the commanded cooperation of His people.
The Apostle Peter wrote to the believers "Expecting and HASTENING the coming of the day of God ..." ( 2 Peter 3:12).
The people of God not only are in expectation of the fulfillment of God's prophecy, they also have a part in cooperation to HASTEN it. This should mean that they may DELAY it also. And if you read through the Bible carefully you can see instances of God waiting for at least a remnant of His people to be in cooperation with His plan, who HASTENED the fulfullment of some promise.
So Matthew 10:23 is no insurmountable problem to me. Though I am eager to give it more study. I certainly am not more impressed with the crocodile tears of some unbeliever hell bent on securing rationals to dismiss the Gospel.
If that is the case, then the Bible is wrong. You're giving a reason as to why...then saying its not a mistake bc there is a "valid" reason.
If that is the case then I do not regard Bible prophecy in the same way as the predicitions of Jean Dixon or Nostradamus, mechanical, dead, machinelike, with no regard to other things God has said revealing HOW His people must cooperate.
To give you an example return now to Matthew 16 which you like so much. Consider these words which you have probably completely overlooked as you salivate over your supposed errors in the Bible.
After the transfiguration on the mountain Jesus commanded the three disciples not to make the vision known until after He had risen from the dead. [b]"And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is raised from the dead." (v.9).
"And the disciples asked Him, saying, why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?
And He answered and said, Elijah indeed is coming and will restore all things; But I say to you that Elijah has already come; and they did not recognize him, but did with him the things they wushed. So alsothe Son of Man is about to suffer by them.
Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them concerning John the Baptist." (Matt. 16:10-13)
In this passage the disciples were occupied with technical details of prophesy. Why has not Elijah the prophet not preceeded the kingdom of God as the Old Testament predicted. Jesus turns them rather to spiritual cooperation.
John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah and as the virtual Elijah. And the reaction to John the Baptist was totally innapropriate, especially from the prophesy studying scribes. They challenged him. They rejected him. And they did no receive his forerunning ministry as coming from God.
Thier reaction exposed them. God however cannot be stopped. He may be delayed. Man's unbelief may cause Him a little trouble and delay. But He will secure a remnant of harmonious followers nonetheless to bring in His purpose in full.
So the second coming of Christ I do not regard as a lifeless, machine like event that has absolutely nothing to do with the cooperation and readiness of His people.
You admit it refers to the end times, then gloss over it.
I am not disappointed in the anomally of Matthew 10:23. Having read the Bible carefully from Genesis to Revelation, having contemplated the ways of God, Matthew 10:23 is by no means an insurmountable problem to me.
Jay writes:
So while I agree that verse 23 may argue for a first century second coming of Jesus, the blame for it not occuring is more likely on the shoulders of the gospel preaching disciples.
Do you see your error?Jesus tells his followers to go from town to town. He tells them in some places they will be welcomed and in others they will have to flee. He then proceeds to tell them before they can go through all the towns, he (Jesus) will return.
I see no untruth spoken by Christ. There may be something there that I don't know enough about.
I am not going to toss away the New Testament because of the apparent difficulty of Matthew 10:23. We are presently praying for those villages and towns in Israel. The gospel is being preached today in Israel and though I am not physically there, I am supportive of those native Israelite Christians who are.
I can see the wickedness of the attitude of scofferes to count God's merciful long-suffering as God's failure. Peter said concerning the Lord's seeming delay -
"But do not let this one thing escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.
The Lord does not delay regarding the promose, as some ...
[some like Hereitic and Grabby] ... count delay, but is long-suffering toward you, not intending that any perish but that all advance to repentence." (2 Peter 3:8,9)
For the sake of God's merciful "long-suffering", not intending that ANY should perish, but that all "advance to repentence" He prolongs to the time of His judgment to fall.
Jay writes:
If verse 23 was a promise that Jesus would have His second coming in a few months or years, then if it did not happen, the disciples must have not adaquately held up their end of the arrangement.
You're ignoring the context again. Jesus is telling them to preach from one town to the next and then adds:
23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
I see exactly what you mean. I am willing to study the passage more. But if you are waiting for some ton of bricks of disappointment to drop on me so that I toss my New Testament into the garbage, that's not going to happen.
I am particularly thankful that the Gospel writers did not attempt to exclude that passage. I am thankful for thier impressive faithfulness to include difficult sayings of Jesus.
This candidness of the writers to include potentially embarressing and difficult sayings of Jesus goes to convince me more of the Gospel's authenticity.
The context is that before they can complete their task, Jesus will return.
You're making the story to say the disciples will not do as Jesus states, so they didnt go through all the towns, they're now dead and since they couldnt go through all their towns, Jesus can return at any time.
In Matthew Jesus also said that the gates of Hades (death) would not prevail against His church which He builds. So we cannot lose.
Though His second coming has been prolonged for the sake of God's longsuffering that more would advance to repentence, the church of Christ, like an anvil, has worn out many hammers for 2,000 years.
So little Heretic, you join the other hammers and do your best.
You're butchering the entire context to save an obvious problem.
As a disciple of Jesus, I look to the other disciples to see what their attitude was. I don't see the Apostle Peter dejected, depressed, down-hearted about the matter. Rather he is quite encouraging as he writes about his own expected demise:
"And I c onsider it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by a reminder.
Knowing that the putting off ogf my tabernacle is imminent, even as also out Lord Jesus Christ has madfe clear to me.
Moreover I will also be diligent that you may be able, after my exodus, to bring these things to mind at all times.
For we did not follow clevery devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we became eyewitnesses of that One's majesty ... while we were with Him in the holy mountain." (See 2 Peter 1:13-18)
I think I'll take my attitude from Peter rather than from you. He witnessed the transfiguration. He was one going to the villages to preach the Gospel of Christ. He is the one whom Jesus apparently informed to prepare to die. And he is the one who left us with totally encouraging reminders and helps to carry on after his death.
So I sense God working through him. As for the scoffers and mockers Peter speaks of in his epistles, they very much remind me of Christ's preeminent instructions about the end of the age.
That is we should not be lead astray by false prophets, false Christ's and false teachers. I count your kind of exposition as false expounding of the Gospel.
Compare:
Jesus - "And Jesus answered and said to them, See that no one leads you astray. " (Matt. 24:4)
The Apostle Peter - "Knowing this first, that in the last of days mockers will come with mocking, going on according to their own lusts and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? " (2 Peter 3:3,4)
You last days mockers seem to be right on time. That is those trying to convince Christians that He is not trustworthy and will not come again.
This is very hard for me to accept because I sense that He is with me already - "Behold I am with you always even to the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20)
The One who lives within me is more persuasive then the scoffers and skeptical unbelievers.
Jay writes:
Let me ask you a question now. And don't say it is not relevant. You have been quite a stickler on the words of Jesus and their fulfillment. So do you believe that as He said, He would rise from the dead?
Do I believe he said he would rise from the dead? Not sure.
I believe a man named Jesus existed. I believe in many instances he may have said something similiar (the authors were not present)...but as to which statements, I do not know.
Could it be that some aspects of the message which are personally difficult to you jade your view to account them as not authentic ? You did not see me saying that Jesus probably did not say what was recorded in Matt. 10:23).
I don't select the sayings as authentic based on a subjective filter, "What I like I take as authentic. What I don't like is embellishment or unreliable."
This is a problem with many New Testament readers. They are too subjective, choosing what they want to be turned off by.
Jay writes:
Do you believe in a resurrected and living Jesus Christ today?
What I do believe is that there are many who are so scared of death that they have convinced themselves that the Bible is true.
The concept of dying and never "existing" again is too much to bear, so heaven is needed.
From this response it seem you regard fear as the only motive to believe the Gospels. You don't want to be "so scared".
There is certainly the splendour of a Wonderful Person Christ. No one can compete with Him in beauty and in truth. No once can compare to Him in wisdom. Some of us love Him just for Himself. We find Jesus a believable Person.
Jay writes:
We are talking about the validity of the words of Jesus Christ here. Are you selective in that regard? Or do you put the same amount of emphasis on His teaching about His death and resurrection ?
Eric:
There are many error and absurdities in the gospels. This thread dealt with one obvious aspect. Its a debate site. So I debated.
I eventually found that the whole NT either stands together or falls together. The same mouth that spoke about His coming before all the villages of Israel would be visited also spoke that He would be killed and on the third day arise.
Those early disciples gave their lives for something. They were transformed from a band hiding out for fear of themselves being executed to spreading the gospel everywhere.
I think that they understood that if Jesus kept His word about rising from the dead He would also keep it about coming in glory someday. There is no hint in the Acts or the Epistles that because He had not yet come it was all over.
I don't think your case is strong enough to prove "absudities" and "errors" in the Gospels.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by hERICtic, posted 05-18-2010 8:30 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by hERICtic, posted 05-19-2010 8:19 AM jaywill has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 202 of 479 (561175)
05-19-2010 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by jaywill
05-19-2010 5:45 AM


Re: Transfiguration?
If that is the case, then the Bible is wrong. You're giving a reason as to why...then saying its not a mistake bc there is a "valid" reason.
Jay writes:
If that is the case then I do not regard Bible prophecy in the same way as the predicitions of Jean Dixon or Nostradamus, mechanical, dead, machinelike, with no regard to other things God has said revealing HOW His people must cooperate.
Jean Dixon and Nostradamus did not predict anything. Both have been shown over and over to make broad statements or have their statements taken out of context to make it seem like predictions to fit events.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay writes:
If verse 23 was a promise that Jesus would have His second coming in a few months or years, then if it did not happen, the disciples must have not adaquately held up their end of the arrangement.
You're ignoring the context again. Jesus is telling them to preach from one town to the next and then adds:
23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Jay writes:
I see exactly what you mean. I am willing to study the passage more. But if you are waiting for some ton of bricks of disappointment to drop on me so that I toss my New Testament into the garbage, that's not going to happen.
I do not expect you to agree with me on any points actually. If you did, the Bible would collapse. I realize you cannot have that. Jesus could state he would return in 1 year exactly and apologists would change the meaning of "year". Its how Bible errors are corrected all the time. Any mistake can be "altered" to make the problem disappear.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay writes:
Let me ask you a question now. And don't say it is not relevant. You have been quite a stickler on the words of Jesus and their fulfillment. So do you believe that as He said, He would rise from the dead?
Do I believe he said he would rise from the dead?
Eric writes:
Not sure.
I believe a man named Jesus existed. I believe in many instances he may have said something similiar (the authors were not present)...but as to which statements, I do not know.
Could it be that some aspects of the message which are personally difficult to you jade your view to account them as not authentic ? You did not see me saying that Jesus probably did not say what was recorded in Matt. 10:23).
I don't select the sayings as authentic based on a subjective filter, "What I like I take as authentic. What I don't like is embellishment or unreliable."
Jay, you have in inherent bias, I do not. You need the Bible to be true. You cannot have Jesus be wrong. It has nothing to do with me liking or disliking what Jesus is saying. In fact, i would love to know after death, "life" goes on. That I would meet my family and friends again. But unlike you, I base my beliefs upon evidence.
I am going by context and what Jesus actually spoke. I am debating as if Jesus said every single word attributed to him, regardless if I believe those are his words are not. Its all about context. To give an example:
The prophecy of Tyre. Its an utter failure. It specifically states Nebakanezer would destroy Tyre. Apologists realize it was a false prophecy, but since god does not lie according to them, the context must be demolished and rebuilt to salvage the dilemma.
You're doing the same with the scripture at hand. I am not the one with the jaded view, you are. Its obvious based upon Matthew 10 that Jesus was relaying that his return was imminent. He told his followers to go from town to town throughout Israel, but before they could complete their task, Jesus would return.
Jay writes:
I don't think your case is strong enough to prove "absudities" and "errors" in the Gospels
There are hundreds. But as I stated earlier, any contradiction can be explained away if one is willing to add/delete/ignore the context.
We are way off topic again. Back to Matthew. We know from Matthew 16 that Jesus said the "time is near" and that his disciples were to preach his message but they would not be able to go through all the towns before he returns.
Both indicate that time frame. Moving foward, Matthew 16:
27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Jesus is speaking to those standing in front of him. Im sorry Jay, but this cannot be the transfiguration for the simple fact, none died. Please also tell me, using scripture, not your own beliefs, what is states about Jesus returning with his angels. What is to occur?
Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
Does this refer to Jesus returning? Yes or no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2010 5:45 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2010 9:46 AM hERICtic has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 203 of 479 (561180)
05-19-2010 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by hERICtic
05-19-2010 8:19 AM


Re: Transfiguration?
Jay writes:
If that is the case then I do not regard Bible prophecy in the same way as the predicitions of Jean Dixon or Nostradamus, mechanical, dead, machinelike, with no regard to other things God has said revealing HOW His people must cooperate.
Jean Dixon and Nostradamus did not predict anything. Both have been shown over and over to make broad statements or have their statements taken out of context to make it seem like predictions to fit events.
What I emphasis is that nothing is needed whatsoever of people's part. Its predected to happen and it suppose to happen.
It is essentially like occult fortune telling. I do not regard God's prophecy in the same way. The evidence for a basis of that understanding immediately follows the transfiguration in Matthew 16:10-13.
Jay writes:
If verse 23 was a promise that Jesus would have His second coming in a few months or years, then if it did not happen, the disciples must have not adaquately held up their end of the arrangement.
You're ignoring the context again. Jesus is telling them to preach from one town to the next and then adds:
23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
So you as one of the persecutors are now turning around and scolding them that the Lord did not come. That's neat.
Maybe He delayed at their request so that people like you might be saved. Perhaps they had relatives and loved ones whom they were burdened would not be lost.
I will not repeat the matter endlessly. Peter does not seemed to be devastated about Matthew 10:23. I don't think I should be.
You see, I am will to admit that there are some unknowns in the Bible.
I do not expect you to agree with me on any points actually.
That is good because you displayed a hefty amount of misunderstanding on some passages.
If you did, the Bible would collapse. I realize you cannot have that. Jesus could state he would return in 1 year exactly and apologists would change the meaning of "year". Its how Bible errors are corrected all the time. Any mistake can be "altered" to make the problem disappear.
The difference with me in you may be that if I turn out to be wrong I will have lost nothing. It is still the best possible life I could have lived.
If I come to the end of my brief life on earth and see that Jesus Christ was not real I will have no regrets. If I had a hundred lives to live I would not like to waste one of them not believing in the God of the Bible.
As it stands I am assured that the truth is in Jesus Christ. But it is the most fulfilling life I could have chosen to live, believing that the Spirit of the resurrected Son of God lives in me transforming me and building me up into His family.
If you have something better to live for, what is it ?
Do I believe he said he would rise from the dead?
Eric writes:
Not sure.
Do you intend to be non-comittal about it for the rest of your life?
I believe a man named Jesus existed. I believe in many instances he may have said something similiar (the authors were not present)...but as to which statements, I do not know.
Jay, you have in inherent bias, I do not. You need the Bible to be true.
Something wrong with needing the Bible to be true ?
I also need water to quench my thirst. I die without it.
Does that make water an illusion?
What do you have that is superior to Jesus Christ ?
You cannot have Jesus be wrong. It has nothing to do with me liking or disliking what Jesus is saying. In fact, i would love to know after death, "life" goes on.
The phrase "afterlife" is nowhere in the Bible. Resurrection is there.
And unlike you I do not only expect life on the other side of the grave to be fulfilling. As I said, living and walking with the Son of God is the best possible life I could have lived.
If the Bible turns out to be wrong and I had a chance to do it all over again I would say "Let me have that Jesus Christ matter again. Only this time sooner in life so I have more time to enjoy that matter."
What do you have that is superior to the Son of God ?
That I would meet my family and friends again. But unlike you, I base my beliefs upon evidence.
The Christ working in my life is my best evidence. I know that I did not and could not bring the changes within myself that the Spirit of Jesus has.
Outside of me, objectively, the evidence is also very convincing. I would like you to go through the entire chapter of Matthew 24, 25 and specify which sayings you hold as authentic of Jesus and which you do not - verse by verse.
What we're likely to find is that you conspiracy theory requires more a leap of faith then to just take the words as of Christ.
I am going by context and what Jesus actually spoke. I am debating as if Jesus said every single word attributed to him, regardless if I believe those are his words are not. Its all about context. To give an example:
The prophecy of Tyre. Its an utter failure. It specifically states Nebakanezer would destroy Tyre. Apologists realize it was a false prophecy, but since god does not lie according to them, the context must be demolished and rebuilt to salvage the dilemma.
What specific passage are you refering to? Probably you don't have too strong a case.
You're doing the same with the scripture at hand. I am not the one with the jaded view, you are. Its obvious based upon Matthew 10 that Jesus was relaying that his return was imminent. He told his followers to go from town to town throughout Israel, but before they could complete their task, Jesus would return.
Since it seems not to have discouraged the apostles, perhaps there is something more I don't know. Peter and John in thier writings don't even mention it. And they surely do not leave us with the impression that Matthew 10:23 invalidates the ministry of Christ including the second coming.
Jay writes:
I don't think your case is strong enough to prove "absudities" and "errors" in the Gospels
There are hundreds. But as I stated earlier, any contradiction can be explained away if one is willing to add/delete/ignore the context.
One down (very questionionably) and 99 to go.
We are way off topic again. Back to Matthew. We know from Matthew 16 that Jesus said the "time is near" and that his disciples were to preach his message but they would not be able to go through all the towns before he returns.
Yep, we're back to the same problem. How many years constitutes "near"?
What gives you the authority to dictate 2,000 or more years is not "near"?
Both indicate that time frame. Moving foward, Matthew 16:
27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
This has been refuted. I will not repeat the discussion.
I think for your argument Matthew 10:23 may be a better example.
Jesus is speaking to those standing in front of him. Im sorry Jay, but this cannot be the transfiguration for the simple fact, none died. Please also tell me, using scripture, not your own beliefs, what is states about Jesus returning with his angels. What is to occur?
Peter refered to the event as I have indicated. And Peter refered to them being eyewitnesses to the power and coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when they were with Him in the holy mountian. (2 Peter 1:12-18).
Peter associates strongly, the transfiguraion with the power and coming of Christ. His whole tone is contrary to yours. And I take his word over yours.
And if all you have now is to repeat previous concepts I think we have run the course. Some of your misconcepts about Matthew 25 could be further examined perhaps. But I have no more to say on your Matthew 16:27,28 that I have not already made as clear as possible.
Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
"All the tribes of the land" meaning the Jewish tribes living in the Holy Land to which Christ will descend.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by hERICtic, posted 05-19-2010 8:19 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-19-2010 10:15 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 211 by hERICtic, posted 05-19-2010 4:17 PM jaywill has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 204 of 479 (561187)
05-19-2010 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by jaywill
05-19-2010 9:46 AM


Re: Transfiguration?
I will not repeat the matter endlessly. Peter does not seemed to be devastated about Matthew 10:23. I don't think I should be.
Just a quick question here and it is not my wish to start a big discussion on it. Just wanted to get your perspective
What keys and to what kingdom do you suppose Jesus gave to Peter, as he states in Matt 16
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2010 9:46 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2010 12:35 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 205 of 479 (561214)
05-19-2010 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Dawn Bertot
05-19-2010 10:15 AM


Re: Transfiguration?
Just a quick question here and it is not my wish to start a big discussion on it. Just wanted to get your perspective
What keys and to what kingdom do you suppose Jesus gave to Peter, as he states in Matt 16
Excuse me if I come off grumpy these days. I may get back to our other discussion.
I think that the (plural) keys to the were the "keys" of his two gospel messages. One key allowed the Jews to entire into the church life at Pentacost. And the other key he used to open the way for the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius to enter into the church life.
He had a key for the Jews and a key for the Gentiles - the keys of the kingdom of the heavens.
What do you think ? (No big discussion understood).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-19-2010 10:15 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-19-2010 1:10 PM jaywill has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 206 of 479 (561222)
05-19-2010 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by jaywill
05-19-2010 12:35 PM


Re: Transfiguration?
He had a key for the Jews and a key for the Gentiles - the keys of the kingdom of the heavens.
What do you think ? (No big discussion understood).
Possibly, we however understand the church to be the kingdom and that he used to those keys to show entrance into that kingdom on the day of pentecost.
With the new covenant, the new system of obeying God, hence he said, "Repent and be baptized for the remmission of sins"
"And there was added to the church daily such as should be saved"
I think it easily explains christs words that "there be some standing here............."
EAM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2010 12:35 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2010 1:15 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 208 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2010 1:18 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 207 of 479 (561225)
05-19-2010 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Dawn Bertot
05-19-2010 1:10 PM


Re: Transfiguration?
If you have been following this dicussion what is your take on Matthew 10:23 ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-19-2010 1:10 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-19-2010 1:29 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 208 of 479 (561227)
05-19-2010 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Dawn Bertot
05-19-2010 1:10 PM


Re: Transfiguration?
"And there was added to the church daily such as should be saved"
I think it easily explains christs words that "there be some standing here............."
I understand your point. No comment right now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-19-2010 1:10 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 209 of 479 (561229)
05-19-2010 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by jaywill
05-19-2010 1:15 PM


Re: Transfiguration?
"For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. "
The resurrection and Pentecost. Most want the coming to be a visible manifestation of Christ. That is not necessary for it to be fulfilled. Atleast that is my take on it
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by jaywill, posted 05-19-2010 1:15 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 210 of 479 (561232)
05-19-2010 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by hERICtic
05-16-2010 10:39 AM


Re: Sure not the Transfiguration
I may go back and pick up a few points not spoken to adaquately.
To my reference Luke 17:22 a poster replied:
This has nothing to do with his disciples if they're going to see the end times or not. You're taking a verse out of context. Notice what it states. They will long to see the DAYS of the son of man. In other words, Jesus is stating that his disciples will wish to be with him again on earth as they have been, but will not. The "it" does not refer to the end times, it refers back to "the days of the son of man".
I don't think so. I think "one of the days of the Son of Man" refers to His victorious and supernatural coming crushing the enemies of God. Let's look at context:
"And when He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingom of God was coming, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation;
Nor will they say, Behold, here it is! or, There! For behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.
And He said to the disciples, The daus will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.
And they will say to you, Behold, there! Behold, here! Do not go away, nor run after them.
For just as lightning flashes, from one end of heaven shines to the other end of heaven, so will the Son of Man be in His day. But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation" (Luke 17:20-25)
Clearly, "the Son of Man ... in His day" is the meaning of "one of the days of the Son of Man".
Because some, like the Pharisees, will want the kingdom to come outwardly, but neglect the living King Jesus in their midst, they are likely to prematurely go out after other people or signs. Jesus is warning His disciples that though they may long to see the second coming of Christ they will not see it simply because they have such a longing.
"This generation" will be a rejecting generation. And this rejection will both preceed Christ's victorious descent and cause the disciples to long for such a vindication before God is pleased to bring it in.
As for the disciples longing again to have Jesus with them, He had taught them that it was expedient for them that He go away to send the Holy Spirit to indwell them (John 16:7).
The indwelling presence of Jesus was more vital and powerful then His outward being among them. And this indwelling had to be tested.
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit ." (1 Cor. 15:45)
And it was expedient that the Christ among them would become the Christ within them to be their life.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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