The UK Election!!!!

Well I hate to say I told you so...... Message 243Yes - Legend needs to settle how we get round this. Otherwise his idea is dead in the water. I have already called all foreigners revolting.

I agree, let's wait what he has to say. See, everybody agrees with me!

Ummm.. so I think:House of Lord reform (can we have a fully elected Lords?)
Voting reform generally (but how?)
No tuition fee increases
Soaking the rich
Quietly retiring TridentIf I think of more I'll say.

Welcome to our little experiment.Voting reform and some sort of economic policy question related to tax reform/financial recovery/deficit reduction seem to me to be the two broad issues that have been cited most frequently. Good question. If we get past the first hurdle of broadly agreeing what our two primary issues are then we can move onto further testing Legend's direct democracy idea by seeing if we can agree a question on which a meaningful vote can be taken. The more the merrier.

Those that propose an issue should provide the full wording of said proposal for the public to consider. Just vote reform is not enough information to let the public know what actually is being proposed and, if taken up from the list, on what it is they are voting. To try to draft a proposal word for word by committee is ridiculous when dealing with humans, as we all know.If we are to form this democracy we need to start somewhere with a list of rules, a Constitution if you will.I propose that a 3 day discussion period be implemented on this document.I propose that each member voice their opinion.I propose that Straggler and Legend determine if there appears, in their sole opinions, any interest as evidenced by this discussion period in holding a vote on this document as it presently stands.If in their opinion there is interest, note I did not say acceptance, I propose that Straggler, operating as Thread Leader Pro Tempor, submit this document to public vote and that a majority vote will consecrate this document and bring its provisions into full force.I propose the following be put to our small constituency for vote:-----------------------------------------------1. AdministrationThe public will select the Thread Leader from the nominations received.Nominations can be made by any member providing no member may nominate themselves.Nominations for Thread Leader (TL) will be open for a period of three days.Each nomination must receive a second from another member before the nomination is entered onto the election list for TL. No member may second their own nomination.On the close of the three-day nomination period the list of seconded nominees will be published by the TL Pro Tempor in the thread and a three day voting period will commence.Each member is entitled to a single vote for TL. The nominee with the majority of votes will assume the duties and responsibilities of TL. A majority will be counted as 50% +1 of all members regardless of the number of total votes cast.If no nominee receives a clear majority then the two receiving the most votes will be put to a runoff vote. If there is a tie for second most votes or a three-way tie for most votes then all three nominees will participate in the runoff election.2. Forming The Issues ListThe TL will announce a Call for Issues. The Call for Issues will be open for not less than 3 days nor more than 5 days at the discretion of the TL. Any member may submit an issue or any number of issues to be included in the Issues List.The Issue submitted should be detailed and specific in what is being proposed and in how the proposal is to be implemented. Lacking detail may cause the voting public to avoid taking the issue forward.Members may alter the written specifics of their Issue Proposal at any time until the Call for Issues has ended.3. Bringing an Issue ForwardWhen the Call for Issues has ended the TL will publish the official Issues List, without detail, and will commence a 3 day voting period to determine which 2 issues from the official Issues List will be submitted for public vote.Each member will have 2 votes. Members may cast their votes as they please casting one vote for 2 separate issues or casting both votes for 1 issue. No fractional voting will be accepted.At the close of the voting period the TL will publish the official vote totals. The 2 issues receiving the most votes will be Called Forward from the Issues List for public discussion and vote.If there is a multiple tie for most votes or second most votes then those issues sharing these votes will be submitted for a runoff vote.4. Voting On the IssueThe TL will announce and list, without detail, the 2 Public Issues, as a result of Section 3, to be submitted for Public Vote. To allow time for discussion the Public Vote on the Issues will commence not less than 3 days and not more than 5 days, at the discretion of the TL, from the time of announcement of the 2 Public Issues.Each Public Issue will be submitted for Public Vote simultaneously but separately.Each member has a single vote on whether to accept or to reject the detailed written Issue Proposal. This applies to each Public Issue separately.Any Public Issue receiving a majority vote of acceptance will be implemented. A majority will be counted as 50% +1 of all members regardless of the number of total votes cast on an Issue.5. ArbitrationThe TL will appoint an Arbitrator to serve at the pleasure of the TL.No public vote will be called on this appointment.The TL may, at his discretion, replace the Arbitrator at any time.Any member may bring a complaint or dispute on the above sections to arbitration by detailing the specifics of the alleged violation of the sections to the Arbitrator.The Arbitrator will have sole and final authority to interpret the meaning and intent of all sections of this document and may dismiss the complaint or order a remedy to resolve the violation.6. AmendmentAll Amendments to this document must be submitted in the Call for Issues and must meet all requirements of Sections 2, 3 and 4 except that, if Called Forward, a super majority is required for acceptance. The super majority will be counted as 75% of all members regardless of the number of votes cast on the Issue.7. ImplementationMember Straggler will serve as Thread Leader Pro Tempor for the purposes of initiating the responsibilities of this document and to implement the requirements of Sections 1 and 5.Edited by AZPaul3, : detail alteredEdited by AZPaul3, : Alteration 2Edited by AZPaul3, : alteration 3

I agree.Now what is it I am supposed to do?

Officially call for a 3-day discussion period.After this period, get with Legend to determine if a vote is warranted.If so, conduct the vote.

I hereby officially call for a three day discussion period.

In order to make any democracy, especially an open direct democracy, there need to be sets of rules by which its processes are conducted. We can make this work if we have and follow a set of rules designed to facilitate such an open process.IMHO, I have proposed such a structured set of rules with a safeguard to mitigate abuse.I, as the document's author, am willing to make any changes to this proposal that, in my opinion, are reasonable and add to the fairness of the process.I will not add any major new sections nor entertain any suggestions that I think needlessly complicate the processes in each section.I will not entertain obfuscation.This is intended as a basic starting structure. The only goal is that it work adequately enough to start a structured process. Refinements and expansions can be done through the Amendment process defined within the set of rules.One question I can be sure will come up is why the multi-vote scheme in Section 3? This is a technique that is often used in small groups under ISO 9000 Business Improvement processes. It allows a significant minority, a large one but short of a majority, to bring forward an issue that otherwise may not be entertained. The majority still rules the roost under such a scheme since a majority vote is necessary to accept and implement any policy.This can have surprising benefits since it often opens eyes to issues the majority did not even know it cared about.During this discussion period I will do my best, within my limited time to participate, to answer any questions on the intent and proposed operation of the rules.If this measure fails it will be incumbent upon some other group to propose a structure for our conduct of governance.As we have already seen, without a charter of some structure by which to proceed people take it upon themselves to decide and implement based upon their own ideas instead of those approved by the society.

Day one has passed without comment or interest.

Indeed.I think this highlights two (of many) potential problems with the whole direct democracy idea:1) Apathy
2) Participant confusionI get what you are trying to do with the formalisation of how to choose what gets voted on and I essentially agree with it. But now nobody is sure where or how to take things further.Given that this is Legend's baby I also think we need to wait and see what he says about the whole thing.But the point of this test was to see if we could do this with a tiny number of people (8 participants as it turns out) and if so how easy would it be to translate the methodology to a population of 40 million plus voters.I am willing to try and make this work (the exercise is kinda interesting for it's own sake) but so far our inability to come to a conclusion with 8 participants suggests to me that the ability to extend the method to 40 + million is not looking good............Legend - Where are you?

It was a fun thread until I got serious and tried to make it work.My apologies to Legend, you and the rest of the horde.Consider my proposal rescinded.

I propose that I should be made dictator for life.I vote aye.Polls will close at 11:10 am Pacific Daylight Time.This is going to be a very short experiment in direct democracy.

Tell us what to do oh mighty leader.

If he says to go drink beer and play with girls then count me in.