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Author Topic:   Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 121 of 607 (561829)
05-23-2010 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by ICANT
05-23-2010 5:18 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
ICANT writes:
I know the thing in the 2 chapters are not in chronological order. That is the reason I have said Genesis 2:4-4:25 should follow Genesis 1:1 as 2:4 says this is the history of the heaven and the earth in the day the heaven and the earth was created.
I even listed the things between the 2 stories that can not be reconciled into one story which you nor anyone else has addressed.
In the story in Genesis 2:4-25 the man was formed from the dust of the ground and the woman made from one of his ribs. They were placed in a garden and forbidden to eat the fruit of one tree.
remove the translators chapter numbering system and it becomes one account as the way moses wrote it.
The splitting up of the account is only to help us find things easier...it should not be dogmatically viewed as being an actual 'new' chapter as if thats what Moses intended.
without the splitting up of the account, this is what you'd have:
Genesis as moses wrote it writes:
"After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making. This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
Perhaps the translator should have started his new chapter from Vs 5:
Now there was as yet no bush of the field found in the earth and no vegetation of the field was as yet sprouting, because Jehovah God had not made it rain upon the earth and there was no man to cultivate the ground.
If he did make vs 5 the beginning of Chpt 2, do you think you could read it in the same way as you are doing now? And do you really think that the translator who made the numbering system actually had any better idea of how the account should be understood then anyone else?
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2010 5:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2010 8:42 PM Peg has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 122 of 607 (561833)
05-23-2010 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Straggler
05-23-2010 5:25 PM


Re: What Would You Consider A Valid Refutation?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
And I agree that the two storeis don't agree perfectly. So what is your point?
From the OP:
ICANT writes:
In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2.
My point is there are two stories one in chapter 1 and 1 in chapter 2.
Thanks for confirming my affirmation.
Straggler writes:
Namely that it is the same story being told in two differently flawed ways.
Now you are asserting that the two stories are the same just being told differently.
Would you care to show how they could be one story with all the many differences within them?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Straggler, posted 05-23-2010 5:25 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Straggler, posted 05-24-2010 8:25 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 123 of 607 (561836)
05-23-2010 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Peg
05-23-2010 7:09 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
And think about it, if the earth was created in 1 day, how many days must the millions/billions of other heavenly bodies in the universe have taken to create? If the earth took 1 day, then surely every other planet took 1 day each at least....that would amount to milllions/billions of days, yes?
How small is the God you serve?
My God spoke and all those things existed at once. He is no 90 pound weakling.
Peg writes:
So could the yom/day in Gen 2:4 really just be 1 24hr day? I dont think so.
The only dark period the day the heaven and the earth was created in is found at Genesis 1:2.
I never said that light period was 24 hours long or any length as far as that is concerned. God had not set the clock in motion and there was not light periods and dark periods to keep time by. There was only a light period.
Which would prove beneficial to all the vegetation required to make all of the fossile fuel available.
The light period started in the beginning and lasted untill the evening we find in Genesis 1:2
That is the reason that from the evening until the morning was only 12 hours but yet called the first day. When you include the light period the heavens and the earth was created in you have a complete day. Not just the light portion that is called day.
If you check in Revelation you will find that the New heaven and earth will have a light period but no night.
Peg writes:
you are taking Isaiah out of context. Isaiah 45 is a prophecy about King Cyrus freeing the then captive Jews from their bondage. Thru Isaiah God is reassuring the captives that they will not be left without salvation...He assures them that his purposes will be realised because he did not create them or the earth in vain. He has a purpose and it will be fulfilled.
No I did not take God out of context.
God is detailing in a message to Cyrus why he should believe the story Isaiah is telling him. Since God has no higher arthority to appeal to He appeals to Himself. In the process He makes the statement He did not create the earth vain but to be inhabited.
That is a declarative statment made by God to Isaiah. Isaiah is the one who has to convince Cyrus.
Peg writes:
Yep i see what you are saying and i disagree with you.
So why don't you start at verse 4 and refute what I say.
You have already agreed that the heaven and earth existed in Genesis 1:1.
So why not explain the history of the day the Lord God created the heaven and the earth.
But you are free to disagree.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Peg, posted 05-23-2010 7:09 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Peg, posted 05-23-2010 10:22 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 124 of 607 (561838)
05-23-2010 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Peg
05-23-2010 7:27 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
If he did make vs 5 the beginning of Chpt 2, do you think you could read it in the same way as you are doing now? And do you really think that the translator who made the numbering system actually had any better idea of how the account should be understood then anyone else?
I don't care if it was in the book of Exodus the words written in Genesis 2:4 would be refering to Genesis 1:1 along with the following verses.
But 2:5 does not claim to be the beginning of the history of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Genesis 2:4 does make the claim it is the beginning of the history of the day God created the heaven and the earth in the day God created the heaven and the earth.
And yes I know that the writings of Moses did not have verses and chapters as that did not happen until just a few hundred years ago.
Moses would have written on clay tablets as that is what the children of Israel was proficient in making.
That means it would have been easy to mix them up and get verses in the wrong place.
I say Genesis 2:4 should follow Genesis 1:1 as it claims to be the history of what happened in the light period God created the heaven and the earth.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Peg, posted 05-23-2010 7:27 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Peg, posted 05-23-2010 10:29 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 130 by purpledawn, posted 05-24-2010 9:44 AM ICANT has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 125 of 607 (561848)
05-23-2010 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by ICANT
05-23-2010 8:24 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
ICANT writes:
How small is the God you serve?
My God spoke and all those things existed at once. He is no 90 pound weakling.
he is also a 'God of order' who does things in an orderly fashion as the account in genesis chpt 1 shows. If it all happened at once, why does Genesis 1 state that various stages happend on different days?
day 1 'let there be light'
day 2 'Let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.’
day 3 'Let dry land & vegetation appear'
day 4 'Let the sources of light be visible in the expanse'
dat 5 'Let water creatures & flying creatures swarm forth'
day 6 'Let land animals and mankind appear'
How could this all happen in 1 day, if the account shows it happened over 6 days?
ICANT writes:
I never said that light period was 24 hours long or any length as far as that is concerned. God had not set the clock in motion and there was not light periods and dark periods to keep time by. There was only a light period.
where is this light period mentioned....and if you say vs 5, then show me the light period that came before vs 5.
ICANT writes:
If you check in Revelation you will find that the New heaven and earth will have a light period but no night.
so is the earth going to stop spinning?
We will always experience night and day literally.... but figuratively speaking a night period is a time of darkness. It can be a spiritual darkness such as the darkness that surrounded the jews in the days before the Messiah appeared. Zechariah spoke a prophecy about the light of salvation that the messiah would bring
Luke 1:67And Zech‧a‧ri′ah its father was filled with holy spirit, and he prophesied, saying: 68Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention and performed deliverance toward his people. ...77to give knowledge of salvation to his people by forgiveness of their sins, 78because of the tender compassion of our God. With this [compassion] a daybreak will visit us from on high, 79to give light to those sitting in darkness and death’s shadow, to direct our feet prosperously in the way of peace.
The new heaven and earth will be in a continual 'light' only in the sense that God will be ruling the nations and the spiritual light from him will not cease.
ICANT writes:
God is detailing in a message to Cyrus why he should believe the story Isaiah is telling him. Since God has no higher arthority to appeal to He appeals to Himself. In the process He makes the statement He did not create the earth vain but to be inhabited.
That is a declarative statment made by God to Isaiah. Isaiah is the one who has to convince Cyrus.
Isaiah didnt deliver that message to Cyrus...he delivered it to the Jews who were in captivity....Cyrus was not located in Babylon and Isaiah was certainly not located in Persia, the home city of Cyrus.
This was Gods message to the jewish inhabitants of Babylon. It has nothing to do with the genesis account of creation.
ICANT writes:
So why don't you start at verse 4 and refute what I say.
You have already agreed that the heaven and earth existed in Genesis 1:1.
So why not explain the history of the day the Lord God created the heaven and the earth.
I've already done that and there is no point going over it again. You want to read the text that way, but all you are doing in the process is complicating the text and providing a terribly false contradiction of the creation account.
No wonder people are turning away from the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2010 8:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2010 5:22 PM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 126 of 607 (561852)
05-23-2010 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by ICANT
05-23-2010 8:42 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
ICANT writes:
I say Genesis 2:4 should follow Genesis 1:1 as it claims to be the history of what happened in the light period God created the heaven and the earth.
Ok, lets see if that works.
Genesis the way ICANT thinks it should be read writes:
"In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
"This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
5Now there was as yet no bush of the field found in the earth and no vegetation of the field was as yet sprouting, because Jehovah God had not made it rain upon the earth and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 6But a mist would go up from the earth and it watered the entire surface of the ground.
7And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. 8Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in E′den, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.
So according to reading it this way, there was no primitive planet, no animals, no seas....but there was land with no man to cultivate the ground, so God plants a garden and makes a man and woman and then along comes a snake (keep in mind that no animals are mentioned when you read the text this way)
All you are doing is complicating a perfectly fine and logical account of creation that God has provided us with. I think you should trust that he knows what he's talking about and accept what he has provided us with .... there is no need to change things around imo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2010 8:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2010 2:00 AM Peg has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 127 of 607 (561871)
05-24-2010 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Peg
05-23-2010 10:29 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
So according to reading it this way, there was no primitive planet, no animals, no seas....but there was land with no man to cultivate the ground, so God plants a garden and makes a man and woman and then along comes a snake (keep in mind that no animals are mentioned when you read the text this way)
If you stop at verse 9 as you did you don't even have woman existing. Woman does not exist until after all the creatures are formed from the ground, and named by the man.
This is the way it would read in the KJV Bible which I am affirming:
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
2:11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
2:12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
The heaven and earth are created in 1:1
The history of the heaven and the earth begin in what is listed as 2:4.
There was no plants, or herbs before they grew it had not rained and there was no one to till the ground. 2:5
There was a mist that watered the ground from beneath. 2:6
We have man formed from the dust of the ground in 2:7.
God planted a garden 2:8.
God made every tree tht is pleasnt to the sight and good for food to grow out of the ground. 2:9
A river went out of Eden and divided into four to water the land. 2:10
2:11-2:14 is information about the rivers.
God put the man in the garden to dress it. 2:15
2:16-17 God tells the man he can eat fruit of all the trees but one. He is told he will die the day he eats fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good nd evil.
2:18 God said He would make a help meet for man as it was not good for him to be alone.
2:19, 20 God then formed every beast of the field and every fowl of the air out of the ground. He then took them to the man to see what he would call them.
2:21 God took a rib from the man after He made him fall asleep.
2:22 From that rib God made a woman.
The man said the things in 2:24, 25.
Then you bring the snake into chapter 2 when he don't belong there.
Then you leave out the formation of all creatures and fowl and say they don't exist.
I call that selective reading. You know reading what you want to read instead of what I am affirming.
At the very best you are being intelectualy dishonest.
At worst you are being deceitful just to try to prove your point and not address the real issues.
Peg writes:
All you are doing is complicating a perfectly fine and logical account of creation that God has provided us with.
Now who is complicating a perfectly fine and logical account of creation that God has provided.
Which BTW does not conflict with science, like the one you insist on believing in does.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Peg, posted 05-23-2010 10:29 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Peg, posted 05-24-2010 4:21 AM ICANT has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


(1)
Message 128 of 607 (561873)
05-24-2010 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by ICANT
05-24-2010 2:00 AM


Jesus reading of Genesis holds the real affirmation.
Hi ICANT,
I think there is still something to be said about how Jesus spoke of the vs's from Gen 1 and Gen 2 as if they were the same account.
When he was questioned about the legality of Divorce, he showed that the man and woman who were made 'in the beginning' were Adam and Eve.
Matthew 9:3-5 writes:
3And Pharisees came up to him, intent on tempting him and saying: Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground? 4In reply he said: Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?
Now look at where Jesus teaching stems from.
Jesus said in Matt 19:4: writes:
'in reply he said "did you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female"
Genesis 1:27 writes:
"And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them"
the second part of his reply is clearly from Genesis 2:24
Jesus said in Matt 19:5 writes:
"and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’
Genesis 2:24 writes:
That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh
So if your affirmation is that some other humans were created in 'the beginning', why would Jesus speak of them as if they were Adam and Eve? Unless of course he knew that Adam and Eve WERE the humans created in the beginning which would logically mean that Moses did not write about two distinct and different accounts of creation where other humans were created before Adam and Eve.
It would prove that the accounts in genesis chpt 2 is simply a more detailed account about Gods creation of mankind.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2010 2:00 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2010 5:52 PM Peg has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 129 of 607 (561895)
05-24-2010 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by ICANT
05-23-2010 7:46 PM


Re: What Would You Consider A Valid Refutation?
ICANT writes:
Would you care to show how they could be one story with all the many differences within them?
Well you could start by looking at the over-arching similarities rather than the relatively minor differences?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2010 7:46 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2010 6:21 PM Straggler has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 130 of 607 (561902)
05-24-2010 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by ICANT
05-23-2010 8:42 PM


Generations of the heavens and the earth.
quote:
I don't care if it was in the book of Exodus the words written in Genesis 2:4 would be refering to Genesis 1:1 along with the following verses.
Genesis 2:4 is not referring to Genesis 1:1. According to the Documentary Hypothesis, Genesis 2:4a was written by the Redactor. The Redactor is the one who added the "These are the generations" type lines, the genealogies, and the ages of the people.
The word "toledoth" deals with descendants of people. The line takes the reader forward, not backwards. The A&E story, for the Redactors manuscript, starts the stories of the people of the Hebrew Nation. As I noted before, notice the difference in the wording.
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet spring up--for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no one to till the ground;
The Redactor would have been very familiar with apocalyptic language. These are the generations, or account if you wish, of the creation of the Hebrew Nation.
The just-so-type A&E story starts off the lot by explaining why certain things are they way they are in the Hebrew Nation.
The Priestly creation story, was basically a set up for the Sabbath rest which is for the Hebrew Nation, not all nations in the area or on the planet. The Priestly creation story doesn't concern the planet.
God created the sky and the land and what they could see in the sky. Neither story is speaking of a planetary or universe creation as we understand them today.
Neither story has anything to do with science, nor should one try to reconcile them with our knowledge today.
They were stories for a very specific group of people, like most creation stories are.
Our biggest problem is that the final product we have is a cut and pasted product. An author is usually consistent and has a point to what he is presenting. Unfortunately in many of the OT stories we have, the original authors' flow has been interrupted. What we have is the point the Redactor was trying to make, not necessarily the original authors. We have large chunks, but as in the case with the creations stories, the Priestly point isn't necessarily the older Tribal point.
My discussions with Peg concerning "yom" in Genesis 1 eventually caused me to search the internet differently. I still disagree with her assessment of the word in Genesis 1, but I stumbled on to some interesting ideas. One being the idea of Covenant Creation that I mentioned in Message 27, which is from Preterism. (I will get to that thread this week.) Because I agree with the Documentary Hypothesis, that various writers contributed to the first five books; I tried to research how the Priestly writer's creation story meshed with the rest of his writings in the Bible and I found temple-as-cosmos motif.
Genesis 1 was written by P, the Priestly writer. Exodus 25-31 (creation of the tabernacle) was also written by P.
The widespread ancient Near Eastern (ANE) temple-as-cosmos motif undoubtedly lay behind this intratextuality.41 In Exod. 25-31 God in seven speeches instructs Moses regarding the construction of the Tabernacle and its furnishings as well as the priestly vestments. Peter Kearny argued that these seven speeches correspond verbally and conceptually to the seven days of creation of Genesis I.42
The first six speeches to Moses depict the building of the tabernacle and the seventh declares the sabbath. They are consistent in theme.
Either way, the creation stories are not science and I don't feel that either were intended to be taken as actual reported events. They were stories designed for the masses. They had their purpose for their audience, now they are foundational myths that can be used for lessons as we see in the NT.
P.S. I search the internet for corroboration of my thoughts, not to tell me what to think. This enables me to show readers that I am not alone in what I'm thinking. There are scholars and clergy who have thought along the same lines. Whether we come to the same conclusions or beliefs is another issue.

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2010 8:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2010 6:09 PM purpledawn has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 131 of 607 (561950)
05-24-2010 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Peg
05-23-2010 10:22 PM


Re: Do you care to Debate the Affirmed?
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
he is also a 'God of order' who does things in an orderly fashion as the account in genesis chpt 1 shows. If it all happened at once, why does Genesis 1 state that various stages happend on different days?
day 1 'let there be light'
day 2 'Let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters.'
day 3 'Let dry land & vegetation appear'
day 4 'Let the sources of light be visible in the expanse'
dat 5 'Let water creatures & flying creatures swarm forth'
day 6 'Let land animals and mankind appear'
How could this all happen in 1 day, if the account shows it happened over 6 days?
But all of the things listed above did take place beginning with the evening found in Genesis 1:2as it was dark, the ending of that dark period with the following morning was declared as the first day. in Genesis 1:5.
You do realize that there is light on half of the earth all the time don't you? There is also darkness on half of the earth at all times.
I have no problem with that as I believe it is a fact as stated in Genesis 1:2-27.
Peg writes:
where is this light period mentioned....and if you say vs 5, then show me the light period that came before vs 5.
Did God call a light period day?
Did God call a light period and a dark period a day?
The evening followed by the beginning of a light period was declared as the first day.
Where is the light period for day one?
The end of that light period with evening and the end of that dark period with morning was declared the second day.
Genesis 2:4 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Did whoever wrote this verse say these are the generations of the heavens and of the earth? Yes/No
Generations from: Here
1. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Biology) the act or process of bringing into being; production or reproduction, esp of offspring
Hebrew towledah generations:
1) descendants, results, proceedings, generations, genealogies
a) account of men and their descendants
1) genealogical list of one's descendants
2) one's contemporaries
3) course of history
It seems genealogies are the history of families from generation to generation. Thus it is the history of a family.
So Genesis 2:4 declares that these things are the history of the heavens and the earth in the day God created the heaven and the earth.
So whoever wrote this verse said it is the history of the day God created the heaven and the earth.
What is this day that happened in Genesis 1:1?
Peg writes:
so is the earth going to stop spinning?
No it has never stopped spinning and never will except during the process of melting with fervent heat prior to God creating a new heaven and new earth.
Peg writes:
The new heaven and earth will be in a continual 'light' only in the sense that God will be ruling the nations and the spiritual light from him will not cease.
That is not what Revelation says.
John writes:
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
God will produce all the light needed.
Does this verse say there will be no night there? Yes/No
John writes:
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Does this verse say there is no need of the sun or the moon because the Lamb is the light? Yes/No
Does either of these verses state anything about nations or spiritual light? Yes/No
Peg writes:
Isaiah didnt deliver that message to Cyrus...he delivered it to the Jews who were in captivity....Cyrus was not located in Babylon and Isaiah was certainly not located in Persia, the home city of Cyrus.
Isaiah writes:
45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
This verse declares God is speaking to an anointed Cyrus. He had set Cyrus up to do a specific job for Him.
Now whether Isaiah delivered the message or not I do not know. But I do know it was addressed to Cyrus.
Peg writes:
I've already done that and there is no point going over it again.
If you did I missed it could you point out which message you did that in.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Peg, posted 05-23-2010 10:22 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Peg, posted 05-24-2010 7:36 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 132 of 607 (561956)
05-24-2010 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Peg
05-24-2010 4:21 AM


Re: Jesus reading of Genesis holds the real affirmation.
Hi Peg,
Peg writes:
Matthew 9:3-5 writes:
3 And Pharisees came up to him, intent on tempting him and saying: Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground? 4 In reply he said: Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?
You need to correct this quote as it is Matthew 19 not 9.
Peg writes:
When he was questioned about the legality of Divorce, he showed that the man and woman who were made 'in the beginning' were Adam and Eve.
"in the beginning".
This says in the beginning not on day 6. In the beginning would be during the day the Heavens and the earth was created.
Which is attested to by the evidence you presented to prove your point. Genesis 2:24 took place during the day the heaven and the earth was created.
Peg writes:
So if your affirmation is that some other humans were created in 'the beginning', why would Jesus speak of them as if they were Adam and Eve?
But Jesus was talking about the man and woman in Genesis chapter 2 not the people in chapter 1.
Peg writes:
It would prove that the accounts in genesis chpt 2 is simply a more detailed account about Gods creation of mankind.
Genesis chapter 2 is not only a better detailed account of the bara creation of mankind but the bara creation of all creatures, fowl, and vegetation of all kinds.
Genesis 1:2-27 only covers the bara creation of water creatures and mankind in the image and likeness of God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Peg, posted 05-24-2010 4:21 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Peg, posted 05-24-2010 7:42 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 133 of 607 (561957)
05-24-2010 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by purpledawn
05-24-2010 9:44 AM


Re: Generations of the heavens and the earth.
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
Genesis 2:4 is not referring to Genesis 1:1. According to the Documentary Hypothesis, Genesis 2:4a was written by the Redactor. The Redactor is the one who added the "These are the generations" type lines, the genealogies, and the ages of the people.
PD I could care less what the Documentary Hypothesis says about anything. Or what a Redactor may or may not have written.
I don't care if it was written by P or J or even Joseph Smith, I am not affirming or denying anything concerning any of those statements or hypothesis's.
I am affirming what is said in the KJV Bible.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Does this verse say "In the beginning"? Yes/No
Does the verse say, "God created the heaven and the earth"? Yes/No
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Does this verse say, "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth"? Yes/No
Does this verse say those generations are, "of the Heavens and of the earth when they were created"?
Does this verse say those generations are of the heavens and the earth, "when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens"? Yes/No
Nothing matters except what is written in the KJV Bible as that is all that I am affirming in this thread.
Do you agree that the KJV Bible says what it says? Yes/No
If I have misrepresented what the KJV Bible says please show me where I did so.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by purpledawn, posted 05-24-2010 9:44 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Straggler, posted 05-24-2010 6:33 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 141 by purpledawn, posted 05-24-2010 8:40 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 134 of 607 (561958)
05-24-2010 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by Straggler
05-24-2010 8:25 AM


Re: What Would You Consider A Valid Refutation?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Well you could start by looking at the over-arching similarities rather than the relatively minor differences?
The man in Genesis 2:7 was formed from the dust of the ground before any other creatures or plants of any kind.
The woman in Genesis 2:22 was created from the rib of the man after all creatures were formed from the ground and plants were created without seed.
These people were placed in a garden and forbidden to eat the fruit of one tree in the garden.
The man and the woman in Genesis 1:27 were created in the image of God after all other creatures were called forth from the ground after their kind and plants of every kind were produced from the seed in the ground. They were not placed in a garden and they were never forbidden to eat fruit from any tree.
Could you please point out the similarities in these two events.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Straggler, posted 05-24-2010 8:25 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Straggler, posted 05-24-2010 6:54 PM ICANT has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 135 of 607 (561959)
05-24-2010 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ICANT
05-24-2010 6:09 PM


Two Charles Darwins?
In 1859 a book called "On The Origin of Species" was published by one Charles Darwin. In 1872 a book called "The Origin of Species" was published. Also by someone called Charles Darwin. Despite the many seeming similarities between these works it is my affirmation that there were two Charles Darwins who each wrote different books.
Nothing matters except what is written in the KJV Bible as that is all that I am affirming in this thread.
Do you agree that the KJV Bible says what it says? Yes/No
If I have misrepresented what the KJV Bible says please show me where I did so.
Nothing matters except the differing titles and differences between these two books as that is all I am affirming in this post.
Do you agree that the two books have different titles and different wordings in some areas? Yes/No.
If I have misrepresented what the titles or other differences between these two books please show me where I did so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2010 6:09 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 05-24-2010 7:48 PM Straggler has replied

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