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Author Topic:   The Truth About Evolution and Religion
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 352 of 419 (561942)
05-24-2010 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by dkroemer
05-24-2010 3:20 PM


Re: Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics
dkroemer writes:
Anyone who understands the second law knows that it was the decrease in entropy of the sun that caused the entropy of living organisms to increase.
Try:
Anyone who understands the second law knows that it is the increase in entropy of the sun that causes the entropy of the biosphere to decrease.
Edited by bluegenes, : typo

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 360 of 419 (561970)
05-24-2010 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Coragyps
05-24-2010 8:39 PM


Re: Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics
Coragyps writes:
I think Mrs Cornwell called that a "conditional phrase" back in High School English class. What do Campbell and Reece say in the next few sentences? Or do I have to go look up for myself what that "if" anticipates?
You don't have to, and it's predictable.
Next sentence:
"However, the precise primary structure of a protein is determined not by the random linking of amino acids, but by inherited genetic information."
Much later, after a brief explanation of DNA and how mutations can change proteins, they say this:
quote:
"Because we now understand that DNA carries heritable information in the form of genes, we can see that genes and their products (proteins) document the hereditary background of an organism. The linear sequences of nucleotides in DNA molecules are passed from parents to offspring; these sequences determine the amino acid sequences of proteins. Siblings have greater similarity in their DNA and proteins than do unrelated individuals of the same species. If the evolutionary view of life is valid, we should be able to extend this concept of molecular genealogy to relationships between species: We should expect two species that appear to be closely related based on fossil and anatomical evidence to also share a greater proportion of their DNA and protein sequences than do more distantly related species. In fact, that is the case. For example, if we compare a polypeptide chain of human hemoglobin with the corresponding hemoglobin polypeptide in five other vertebrates, we find the following. In this chain of 146 amino acids, humans and gorillas differ in just 1 amino acid, humans and gibbons differ in 2 amino acids, and humans and rhesus monkeys differ in 8 amino acids. More distantly related species have chains that are less similar. Humans and mice differ in 27 amino acids, and humans and frogs differ in 67 amino acids. Molecular biology has added a new tape measure to the toolkit biologists use to assess evolutionary kinship."


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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 371 of 419 (562008)
05-25-2010 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by fizz57102
05-25-2010 5:01 AM


Re: Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics
fizz57102 writes:
is it possible for entropy to locally decrease? I have been trying to get you to say "yes" to this and for some reason you have so far refused to do so. Your statement in message 350 seems to indicate you know that this is so, once the evident typo is corrected - at least, I hope it is a typo...
You might be being generous on the typo, but one does hope so!
dk seems to have some serious comprehension problems in other areas, as well. When I pointed out that mistake, he ignored my comment. Had it been a typo, wouldn't we expect an "oops! sorry! I'll correct that" type of post?
Welcome to EvC, BTW.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 373 of 419 (562012)
05-25-2010 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Huntard
05-25-2010 5:29 AM


Re: Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics
Huntard writes:
I think you made a typo yourself
Not necessarily. The point (2) is not necessarily referring to point (1), but to the local increase in the sun, which is why Fizz ends with the point about whether or not it is sufficient to account for the local decrease here.
I agree that it's slightly confusing, though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Huntard, posted 05-25-2010 5:29 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Huntard, posted 05-25-2010 5:42 AM bluegenes has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 375 of 419 (562015)
05-25-2010 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Huntard
05-25-2010 5:42 AM


Re: Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics
Huntard writes:
Like you said, it's a bit confusing.
Actually, the whole damned thread's confusing, because it's hard to figure what its author is actually trying to say! He repeatedly refers to one book by "neo-Darwinist" authors which is actually meant to be, at least partially, an explanation of how mutations and selection can and do increase complexity!
Kirschner & Gerhart use the phrase "facilitated variation" in much the same way that I would use the phrase "evolved evolvability". They are saying that early natural selection has favoured a system which can make it easy to produce variations which enable modern organisms to adapt and produce novel features by conserving the essentials and randomly varying in productive areas, particularly regulatory genes.
Why the author of the O.P. rambles on about this, and how he connects it to his comments on his god is a mystery.
It's actually interesting biology!

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 Message 374 by Huntard, posted 05-25-2010 5:42 AM Huntard has replied

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 389 of 419 (562062)
05-25-2010 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by dkroemer
05-25-2010 12:15 PM


Re: misunderstanding or misrepresentation?
dkroemer writes:
Facilitated variation is an improvement over natural selection....
dk writes:
However, non-biologists and crackpots who say there was so much time and so many organism and so many mutations that common descent is explained by natural selection are violating the second law of thermodynamics.
Do you understand what I'm saying when I point out that what Kirschner and Gerhart describe as "facilitated variation" is itself a product of random variation and natural selection? It is put forward by them to explain the phenomenon of relatively rapid (in geological time) diversification and increases in complexity in organisms in recent evolution (the last 500 million years, basically).
It has been selected for itself because of its obvious advantages in adaption.
It is put forward as an explanation of the "variation" part of Darwins theory. They describe it as "Resolving Darwin's Dillemma" because Darwin had no way of knowing how the variation that he observed was produced. (He didn't even know about "genes" anyway).
People who explain the diversity of life around us, speciation, and therefore common descent as happening under the broad umbrella description of "variation and natural selection" are not "violating the 2nd LoT". That's pretty much what it actually comes down to, and the "facilitated variation" or "evolved adaptability" that you've latched on to is part of the process.
So, what's your problem, exactly?

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 398 of 419 (562103)
05-25-2010 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by Parasomnium
05-25-2010 6:21 PM


Re: misunderstanding or misrepresentation?
Doesn't his logolepsy aggravate your parasomnia?

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 401 of 419 (562113)
05-25-2010 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by Dr Adequate
05-25-2010 7:02 PM


Re: misunderstanding or misrepresentation?
Meaning you think that our acosmic friend is an acataleptic onanist.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 403 of 419 (562118)
05-25-2010 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by Straggler
05-25-2010 7:06 PM


Re: misunderstanding or misrepresentation?
Straggler writes:
OK you win the smartass of the thread award. I tried - and failed.
You did well. This thread just started to make sense from your post onwards.

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 405 of 419 (562121)
05-25-2010 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Iblis
05-25-2010 7:51 PM


Re: eureka
Iblis writes:
Got it, finally.
Yes, I think you've probably read well between the lines. That's why I've been throwing cold water on the gist of things by pointing out that the original Great Facilitator of "facilitated variation" itself is actually our old friend natural selection, something that the authors of the phrase would agree with.

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