'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

Jay, does this refer to the end times, when Jesus returns? First, the answer is then a yes. It does refer to his second coming. I am not focusing on the "when", just if it refers to his second coming. We are in agreement then.Second, the apostle Peter, as I have shown, clearly says the "coming" refers to the second coming. I have already given the scripture on this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I find it amusing that you have stated you want to know what Peter said about the transfiguration, when in fact its universally agree upon by Bible scholars (not apologists, big difference) that 2 Peter is a forgery. But lets assume that it is the words of Peter.Here are the verses again which refer to the second coming:1 Peter 1:5
who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time."Coming" as in Jesus has not returned yet.2 Peter 1:16
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.Again, he tells his audience Jesus will return.2 Peter 3:4
They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."Again, the "coming" refers to a future event.2 Peter 3:12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.Now, you think I'm out of line to state 2 Peter 1:16 is about the second coming....so I went to a Christian site. They agree with me.http://www.preteristarchive.com/..._Second/2peter_01-16.htmlExactly as I said. Peter is refering to the second coming, but states he was witness to the power of Jesus himself already.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So again, you're obliterating the context. "Coming" never once is shown to refer to anything but the second coming. The wording used describes EXACTLY how Jesus is to arrive per Revelation and Matthew 25, with angels, rewarding mankind. Neither occured during the transfiguration. None died before the transfiguration.Sorry Jay, you're not being honest. You can twist it all you want, ALL THREE never occured during the transfiguration.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally! We are making progress. So what do we know about Revelation?That Jesus will arrive with his angels at the second coming!What else does he say?Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.So you admit it refers to his second coming.....and how shall he arrive? On clouds!What does Matthew also state, in chapter 26?64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."The kicker is that he is talking to the high priest and the council! Notice Jesus states YOU will see him.Revelation 20: The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.Revelation 22: 12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.Now go back to Matthew 16: 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.It backs it up perfectly! Jesus not only admits he is coming SOON, but with angels to reward mankind!Jay, there isnt a single verse in the entire NT that states Jesus is returning far in the future.Even Mark 14 states that Jesus told the high priest HE will witness the return of Jesus on clouds.Jumping back to Matthew 24, since you were saying "when" earlier, Jesus gives the signs for the end times. He then states:29"IMMEDIATELY after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]Notice, a time frame is given! Please do not tell me IMMEDIATELY means 2000 years later!30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.At what time? IMMEDIATELY after the signs! When were those signs to arrive? Jesus states to his disciples: YOU, over and over.

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Summary and Conclusion

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It may be conclusively stated that there is no definitive evidence against the authenticity of 2 Peter in spite of the fact that the majority of scholarship today rejects apostolic authorship. The external evidence, while not proving authenticity, neither disproves it, for the evidence provides twenty-two possible usages of 2 Peter. The internal evidence, particularly the personal allusions to Peter’s life, clearly means to communicate that the author is Peter. The issues regarding history, doctrine, and style are, again, not conclusively against Petrine authorship, but on the contrary, may be used to support it. Each historical problem has a viable solution which harmonizes with Peter’s hand, and the issues of doctrine and style can be attributed naturally to purpose and Peter’s use of an amanuensis.

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The more difficult position to defend is for the adherents of pseudonymity, not for the traditional authorship view. At the time of 2 Peter’s canonization, the practice of pseudonymity was scorned and had not one example of New Testament usage, while the canonical books were only admitted after careful scrutiny of genuineness. That 2 Peter was admitted validates both its authenticity and its non-pseudonymity.

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In conclusion, it may be stated that a denial of Petrine authorship cuts to the very heart of the biblical doctrine of inerrancy. How can one accept the verbal, plenary inspirationwhich would demand Petrine authorship at verse oneand still call 2 Peter canonical?72 Regardless of its late acceptance, it was accepted into the canon of Scripture. And if 2 Peter is Scripture, and if Scripture is inerrant, then the author must be the one whom the word of God says he is: Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ.73

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Is 2 Peter Peter’s? | Bible.org

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hERICTic's problem lies more in denial of the truth of Scripture that he rejects, than with Scripture he cannot understand.

Truth? The truth is that I stated MOST Biblical scholars state that 2 Peter is a forgery. Your opening past job actually states that.Also, what truth do you refer to? You have not presented any evidence, nor has Jay in refuting what I have posted.Its quite simple. Jesus (or the authors words) made it quite clear he was to return during their liftime or soon after. Its only through apologetics can you "solve" this serious problem. In other words, twisting what scripture states.Feel free to present any evidence that Jesus preached the end times were to arrive 2000 plus years in the future. If you wish to believe "near", "close at hand","around the corner" mean far, far away, so be it. If you want to twist the context, so that when Jesus tells his disciples and the high priest "you" to mean those thousands of years later, what can I do?The NT is quite clear. The end times were during their generation.Take care.

EMA,I saw the post and will comment on the interesting question over there latter.

John10:10, let me ask you a question about this comment of Heretic: When Jesus says that heaven and earth would pass away before His words would pass away (Matthew 24:35), does that imply to you that His words will be irrelevant in 10 to 20 years after He spoke them ?

No time frame is given using just said scripture. Using the rest of Matthew 24, as well, as 16,25 and 26, the time frame IS given.In fact, lets back up a little bit.34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.THIS GENERATION refers to the one Jesus is describing in Matthew 24. In this chapter, Jesus clearly states he is refering to his disciples when he states "you" multiple times. Its their time frame.Also, Matthew 24:35 is a repeat of Matthew 5:18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.In other words, once heaven and earth disappear.....So a time is not given based upon either Matthew 5 or 24, just that once it occurs, the end times THEN his words will disappear.

More scripture to show the end times were 2000 years ago.1 John 2:18: Children, it is the last hour! As you have heard that antichrist is coming,
so now many antichrists have come. From this we know that it is the last hour.Again, the descriptive wording to show it was not to occur thousands of years later...."the last hour".Hebrews 1:2: but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.."Last days"....1 Cor 7:29: I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on,
let even those who have wives be as though they had none,

The time frame for Matthew 24:35 anytime from the time the words were spoken until the passing away of the heavens and the earth.Within that timeframe, the words He has just spoken will still be trustworthy, reliable, and dependable. The phrase "heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away" signal that "this generation", however long it should exist, should realize that His words will not fail. This is nothing more than an excuse to have a rational not to listen to the words of Jesus. It is a unbeliever's rational to cast aside the words of Christ.But for believers it is a nonsensical proposition.Jesus says "They they will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations becaise of My name."For Christians under persecution this should be a word of forewarning and encouragement ANY time down through the centries it has applied.For some skeptic to claim to the Christian public "But those words do not apply to you" is completely foolish and should be disregarded.Jesus says "Behold, I tell you beforehand" (v.25)For the skeptic to inform the Christian public that being told beforehand applies to first century Christians but not to subsequent believers is pure foolishness.Jesus says "Therefore if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness, do not go forth; Behold, He is in the inner rooms, do not believe it." (v.26)To advize any Christian believers that these words should be disregarded because they did not concern them, even until today, is utter nonsense.They are still morally reliable advice. If Heretic has no use for them it does not mean that today's Christians do not need them.Jesus says "Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is comes." (v.42) The warning is as appropriate now as ever before. Only the unbeliever has no interest in them because the unbelievers has no sense of the seriousness of Christ coming upon him in his sins.Jesus says "Blessed is the slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing [serving faithfully]. Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions. {v.47)This moral and spiritual warning also is applicable to any Christian "you" at any time. Only a fool would say "Those words applied only to the immediate audience of Jesus. They have not relevance to my Christian life today 2000 years latter."Jesus says "For this reason you also be ready because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming" (v.44)Heretic would have Christians of today disregard this warning as not relevant in 2010 AD because the audience has died long ago. This is utter foolishness.Jesus taught us to build our house upon the rock of His words. The flood, the storm, the wind would not topple the house built on the rock of His words. But to not build our house on His words was akin to building a house on sand. The wind, the rain, the rising river would topple the house foolishly built upon the sand.Throughout the Gospel of Matthew then, to base our Christian life upon the words of Jesus, whether we were present when He spoke or not, is to wisely build our house upon the solid rock of His teachings. (Matthew 7:24-27)First of all the words in Matthew 24 will NOT disappear even if heaven and earth SHOULD do so: "Heaven and earth will pass away, BUT MY WORDS SHALL BY NO MEANS PASS AWAY." (Matt. 24:35) His words will never disappear, never pass away.Secondly, this is what is said in Matthew 5:17-19Notice that Jesus did not say that the PROPHETS speaking would pass away. He only mentioned "one iota or one serif shall by no means pass away from the law ..."He did not say from the law and the prophets.After the millennial kingdom the old heaven and the old earth will pass away when the new heaven and new earth come in Rev. 21:1; Hebrews 1:11-12; 2 Peter 3:10-13). What is covered by the law extends only to the end of the millennial kingdom, whereas what is covered by the prophets extends to the new heaven and new earth (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22).This is why both the law and the prophets are refered to in verse 17, but only the law, not the prophets, is mentioned in v. 18.And the prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 24 is to be trusted as never to fail regardless who in the audience should expire.Certainly, Peter, the virtual leading disciple of the 12, when informed by Christ that he would die soon, did nothing to inform the disciples they therefore should disregard the glorious second coming of Christ.Lately, Heretic realizing that this is so, has resorted to accusing instead that Peter's epistle is forgery. Why am I not surprised?One more "you" sentence ... "Blessed are YOU when they reproach and persecute YOU, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against YOU because of Me.

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Rejoice and exult, for YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for so they persecuted the prophets who were before YOU." (Matt. 5:11,12)These also are words of Jesus which have preserved the Christains down through the centries. Why listen to Heretic that they may not apply to the Christians of 2010 "the year of our Lord" (A.D.) And after the resurrection Jesus told the 11 apostles plus Matthias "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." (Acts 1:8)The Apostle Paul was not among them. In fact as a young rabbi Saul he was dead set against them to persecute the Christian church to the death. Yet not being in the audience did not stop him from also receiving the Holy Spirit and the power to be a witness of Jesus Christ to the world.Its a good thing after he became a discple he didn't dismiss the Lord's promise as only relevant to the immediate audience on that day.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Since you seem to know best what a forgery is and what a forgery is not, please answer one question for those of us who are Christians at this forum:What part of 2 Peter violates or abrogates any other part of the cannon of Scripture written by any other writer, including Peter, or presents any truth essential to God’s salvation in Christ Jesus that is different than presented elsewhere in Scripture?Could it be the part you have the most problem with is Peter’s support of Paul writings in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Pet 2:3:16)?

One thing we Christians know about the book of Revelation is that it is communicated to us in SIGNS (Rev. 1:1) . That is many of the truths revealed in it are in symbolic pictures.For example, in Revelation 19 Jesus Christ returns to the earth to battle at Armegeddon on a white horse accompanied by an army of overcoming believers. And His name is the Word of God. "And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God" (Rev. 19:13).The impact of the sign is that regardless of how long it took for Him to return, He did faithfully do so according to His promise. He descends and His garments get sprinkled with the blood of the enemies of God who He crushes. And His name is called "the Word of God" .Heaven and earth may pass away but His words shall not pass away. "Coming" is actually PAROUSIA in many places in the New Testament and denotes a presence. His "coming" is not so simple.For example, before He is seen on the cloud in Revelation 14 He is concealed and clothed with a cloud in Revelation 10. Both are a part of His PAROUSIA.This means that Jesus will hover close to the earth for a time, concealed in a cloud. And then after a period of time He will become visible upon the cloud. So His second coming is rather involved.Compare Revelation 10:1 with Revelation 14:14 with Revelation 18:1.First you must realize that Jesus Christ, in Revelation, because the book was made known in "signs" (Rev. 1:1) sometimes uses "Another Angel" to symbolize Christ.In Revelation 10:1 Christ is concealed in a cloud - "clothed with a cloud" in a near by secretive way. Then in Revelation 14:14 the Son of Man is made visible sitting on the cloud. Finally in Revelation 18:1 He comes down to the earth and "the earth was illuminated with His glory" (18:1)The three stage progression is all a part of His coming. So the coming of the Lord Jesus is a little involved with different stages.
And this is why we have seemingly paradoxical aspects to His coming.On one hand it is secretive and know one knows the hour. On the other hand is it public and tumultuous and accompanied by global calamities which cannot pass unnoticed.The point here is that the PAROUSIA of Christ is more inolved than we might initially imagine. This corresponds to Him seated ON the cloud in Revelation 14. However in the same book He warns a number of times that if the Christians do not watch He will come upon them in a surprise way. "Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and keep it and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you." (Rev. 3:3) Preparation for the return of Jesus is not simply a matter of looking at the calender and the clock. One must be ready, vigilant, watchful, and morally prepare to immediately appear before Him.A thief does not announce his arrival with loud noises. And a thief comes to steal what is precious. So it is dangerous to over simplify the second coming of Jesus. And it is dangerous to be complacent or only assume that when loud noises come and the heavens shake then we can get ready to meet Him.Herein is some of the problem with Heretic's natural minded and simplified attitude about the second coming of Christ. See what I mean?All Heretic understands is the more outward and objective phenomena. This to him is the essence of the Second Coming of Christ.Not to deny that these things of the more outward nature are indeed true, they are not all that Jesus spoke. He also spoke of being ready for He is coming suddenly like a thief and we could be caught off guard. We have to LIVE as if He could suddenly snatch us up to Heaven at any moment. No clouds, no trumpet, no angels ... only a sudden kidnapping as Enoch just disappeared one night.Since both aspects of His coming are taught by Him it proves at the very least that His coming will include elements of unpredictable surprise. And we have to supplement our ignorance of the details with right living in His presence in a life that He approves of. Heretic, as an unbeliever (we hope one day he becomes a believer) still only picks up the outward, the spectacular, the impossible to miss.I warn any Christrian studying about the second coming of Jesus. His first coming had some rather "tricky" aspects to it.The One called a Nazarene was born in Bethlehem. He was born there and quickly removed to Egypt. He returned from Egypt and was raised in Nazareth. His first coming was a little "tricky".The Pharisees, who knew the prophecies so well, didn't seem interested enough even to go see in Bethlehem to see. At least there is no record that any went. Some shepherds were interested.The first coming of Christ included some aspects which the established religious organization did not expect. Do you think there will be no surprises in the manner of His second coming ?We have today an even stronger religious establishment then they had. For this reason only the proper living in the Spirit of Christ moment by moment will not be caught off guard. And that regardless of how much we know about trumpets and clouds, earthquakes and stars "falling". Reader, I would ask you. However ELSE would Jesus tell ALL people something ?And how does Heretic know that even though that high priest is long dead he will not, from Hades, still "see" the Son of Man "from now on ... sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven" ?This complaint turns out not to be any "kicker" at all. It is a insignificant matter that the high priest whom Jesus was standing before has died. One way or another he will see the Son of Man at the right hand of Power coming on the clouds of heaven. This is at the end of the millennial kingdom. Before that judgment, the saints of Christ have already been judged as to what their position would be in the millennial kingdom.Even before Christ descends to the earth He excercises a judgment to determine which Christians will accompany Him to Armageddon and which will not.He comes to the earth like Gideon. That is with a smaller remnant of overcoming ones, a minority selected for the honor of accompanying Him to the destruction of Antichrist.Proof of this of course can be forthcoming to any interested. My only point here is that Christ has a judgment before the Great White Throne jugment of Revelation 20. In fact both the judgment of Matthew 24:31-46 and the judgment seat of Christ for the believers preceed the judgment of the great white throne in Revelation 20. Here again we have this matter soon.I solemnly assure you all. When Jesus comes again most people will think it is TOO soon rather than TOO late. Looking into the matter of judgments in more detail it is apparent that everyone is judged. However everyone is not judged at the same time. It has been 2000 years at least since Jesus ascended to the right hand of God. And we who believe into Him have been enjoying and living by His indwelling presence.Remember that He said in Matthew that He would be with His believers always, even to the consummation of the age.So what about this matter of "SOON". The coming of Jesus is also at anytime a person dies. "And inasmuch as it is reserved for men to die once, and after this comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27)Heretic should ask himself, if his soul was required of him this evening, would he not feel that he is about to meet God too soon rather than too late? "I come quickly" has a subjective element to it. Quickly and "soon" in this sense cannot be strictly determined by the calender. It involves a moral element. And that is why there were so many accompanying teachings and parables for the Lord's people to be READY and not be caught not ready to meet Him.Simply being saved and forgiven is not enough to be prepared to meet Him. All the passages practically say He returns in "the future".It is just that Heretic wants to assume he can dictate how much future should pass. It is not up to Hereitic to dictate how much time should elapse.All Heretic should be concerned about is to watch and be ready. Believing into Christ in the first place should preceed this. But Heretic said he was undecided about the resurrection so I assume he has not yet believed that Jesus is alive and available to be his Lord and Savior.As an unbeliever and skeptic he wants to be an expert on the Second Coming of Christ. The high priest dying does not necessarily interfer with this.And Jesus was speaking to a collective and aggregate you which would include all of Israel. In the book of Revelation the Sixth Seal unviels cataclyism seen in the heavens. Following the opening of the sixth seal there are still the seven trumpets.The great tribulation lasts three and one half years. Sometime after the time of the celestial calamities witnessed in the opening of the sixth seal and after the sounding of the seven trumpets and the pouring out of the seven bowls Christ descends to the earth.I expect that natural calamities will evolve into supernatural calamities. And sometime at the end of a three and one half year great tribulation, Christ's visible and public descent to the holy land will occur.But the way all the teachings come from His lips, we are to be ready and watching at ALL times. So there is surely to be some element of surprise in His PAROUSIA, His "coming".How "immediate" is "immediatly" cannot be dictated to us even by the apostles let alone by a skeptical unbeliever. A thief however, does not come with a loud commotion. Rather a thief comes with stealth, suddenly, to steal something precious.Since Jesus told us He is coming with a unmistakable accompanying signs in which can hardly be missed AND He warns us that He comes like a stealthy thief, His return will some element of surprise in it.Since we do not know exactly how it will all come down, we have to supplement our ignorance with vigilance and victorious spiritual living by His indwelling grace. The jist of Heretic's interpretation comes down to this - ignore the teaching of Jesus Christ because it is not true. He failed to keep His promise to return right around the corner, soon, immediately.That is the bottom line of what he is getting at. He is an unbeliever seeking to prove that the words of Christ should be dismissed.Never has anyone labored so carefully at words for the purpose of ignoring them.In the mean time we review again Peter's exhortation (which Heretic of course has to now dismiss as forgery) Christ has not returned physically to the earth yet. At the most this has been in God's eyes a two day delay so far.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

No time frame is given using just said scripture. Using the rest of Matthew 24, as well, as 16,25 and 26, the time frame IS given. Correct, but you're not exactly giving a time frame.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In fact, lets back up a little bit.
34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Yep. However long that generation exists....which Jesus states isnt that long.
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In this chapter, Jesus clearly states he is refering to his disciples when he states "you" multiple times. Its their time frame. Nope. Your opinion isnt backed up with any facts. In fact, you're ignoring what is stated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus is speaking directly to his disciples. The "you" would have to include them. But yes, it could refer to those also in the future. You're ignoring the crucial verses though.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Except Jesus clearly lays out the time frame. If none was given naturally it would apply to Christians today. You're still ignoring the key verses.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you always debate with someone as if they're in the third person? Anyway, again you're correct, Jesus tells his disciples they do not know the day he will return.Your post contained a ton of words stating we should trust the words of Jesus....yet you completely ignored the words of Jesus. You pick and choose what you want to follow to keep your faith alive.Some simple questions.Who is Jesus speaking to?20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again.Now, we both know the answer to that, but I want to hear you admit it.29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,The "immediately" refers back to "those days"."Those days" refers back to those taking flight. You've already answered by now who those are taking flight.....Does "immediately" mean right away of thousands of years later.Now be honest Jay.Before answering, please allow me to get to your next response. I have not read it yet, running off to work.Talk to you later. Thanks.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

If you wish to point out that I am not always consistent, I would agree. I am not.However, a good debate style is not that you are trying to persuade the counter party of your argument. Rather you are trying to persuade the audience of your argument.In that case you do use third person. If you do not believe me check a lot of YouTube debates.However, I am not always consistent. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't think I am ignoring any words. We have a different view on the meaning of the word "generation" Matthew 24:34. What passage would you like me to "pick and choose" ? I think I have discussed each passage you have submitted.Which one have I not commented on? Let's let Jesus answer this question directly. Do you have a passage saying "What I say to you, I do [NOT] say to others after you. Watch!"? I don't think at any point I have not been honest.In Matthew chapters 24 and 25 Jesus is talking to His disciples. In verses 4 through 31 His emphasis is on the disciples as also members of the Jewish population. In verses 32 through 25:30 His emphasis is on the disciples as representatives of the new covenant church.In addition He is speaking to anyone who has an ear to hear Him. Mark 13:37 about what He says to the disciples He says to all is virtually the same exhortation as in Matthew 25:42 and 25:13. It is all about the disciples' preparation for His coming again to them. What I read is "And immediately after the tribulation of those days ..."I think He is saying immediately after the great tribulation. I don't think He meant immediately after ANY tribulation.Over the course of two thousand years there have been a number of times of tribulation for Christians. There are likely to be more. Some are in tribulation right now.Immediately after the great tribulation which is unlike any other in history, is what I think Jesus meant there. What we are not told is specifically how much time will elapse between His discourse and the great tribulation which is like no other.You say "one generation". But I think the meaning of "generation" is not the meaning as you see it there. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Me: Eric: The disciple Peter asked if the teaching about readiness applied ONLY to the immediate audience or to others. Here is the answer section which Heretic should not be ignoring: When Peter asks for whom this advice of readiness should apply Jesus does not talk about timeframe at all. The answer is "that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing." Timeframe is irrelevant. Only readiness, faithfulness, and vigilance is relevant. Only knowing the master's will and being about it is relevant. And this is further emphasized in 47: There is nothing here about the calender, the time, the date, or any timeframe. What is crucial is knowing the will of the Master the Lord Jesus and acting accordingly.Please compare Luke 12:40 with Mark 13:37:Should then a Christian follow a teaching that the coming of Christ is either failed to happen, not going to happen, or already happened? A sober minded Christian would never be enfluenced by such a teaching.And this is the essence of Heretic's teaching. That is in the year 2010 A.D. exhortations from Christ about His coming are no longer relevant. According to Heretic Christ is not speaking to Christians of today because of some timeframe.How can a follower of Jesus go along with such a false teaching?Rather, Christ's exhortation about false teachers and false prophets, no matter WHEN they may arise, should be heeded: As long as there is the inhabited earth in which to spread the gospel of the kingdom, the Christian has service to the Master to attend to until He comes: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Wow. Tons of stuff to go over.Jay, I quickly read over all your latest posts. All follow the same format. You twist the meanings of words, you ignore context and you create so many moot points....it makes your posts needlessly long.Only an apologist can take "near" to mean far. "Close by" to mean far off. "Around the corner" to mean many blocks away. "Soon" to mean slowly Every word used to describe the return of Jesus the defintion means the opposite of far away. Every single word. Jesus never once states it far off. Never. Every word he uses to describe (as well as othe authors) states it coming during their lifetime. Every single time.When Jesus is speaking to someone and states "you"....suddenly it no longer means that person...it refers to someone far off in the future.When Jesus states "some of you" in reference to those standing there will die before he returns, in now means "no one". Jay, tell me, between the two of us, whos being honest here? Have I changed any meanings of any words whatsover?If I said, X will occur quickly....you would not assume ever, nor would anyone else its thousands of years later.If I said my father is around the corner, would you believe I meant he was in another country?If I said the town is nearby, would you think I meant it was four states over?Of course not. Yet when the terminology used by Jesus easily shows right away, the meanings of the words change. The mean the exact opposite.This is apologetics at its best (worst?).---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Finally! We are making progress. So what do we know about Revelation? This has no bearing upon our debate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has no bearing upon our debate. We are not discussing if Jesus did it faithfully or not. His promise is to return. We are debating the "when".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This has no bearing upon our debate. I have shown you that EVERY time Jesus states "coming on/with clouds" refers to his second coming. We are not discussing the word "coming". We are discussing "coming on/with clouds" Big difference.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has no bearing upon our debate. It matters not the stages. Jesus makes it quite clear when discussing his "coming" in the gospels that he will be seen. Be it the first part, the second, the third. It matters not. Jesus makes it clear he will return. His return will bring signs. His return will be seen.By who?Those in that time frame.Jay, you're doing it again. You're bouncing around, giving scripture which has nothing to do with the scripture I brought to the table. This is why I keep asking you to focus on the scripture given.Nothing you have states so far has any bearing on what I have stated. Nothing. Yes, Jesus did state the EXACT hour was not known, but he also states his disciples and the high priest would witness the event.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What else does he say?
Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. It also corresponds with Matthew 16: 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."Coming with his angels, rewarding each person....this refers to his return. So does verse 28. SOME standing here...means some will die. First, it therefore cannot refer to the transfiguration. Second, IN CONTEXT, its still refering to the end times.Which means Jesus once again is stating his return is during some of his disciples lives.Jesus like when Jesus told his disciples to preach from town to town and that they cannot make it to the last town before he returns...IN CONTEXT, common sense, Jesus is stating his return is soon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has no bearing upon our debate. We are not discussing the exact time, but a time frame.
------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you admit it refers to his second coming.....and how shall he arrive? On clouds! Jay, show me one verse which uses "coming with/on clouds" that does not refer to his return. Just one.Notice how I back up everything I state? Notice how you keep bouncing around and never seem to address anything head on? Those that you do, you twist the context/meaning of the words.I use what scripture states. I use the context. You use neither.
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I deleted some of your post, bc you're preaching again. Instead of addressing the key issues, you use your opinion as to why I have my viewpoint, instead of presenting any evidence. So far in this entire post, you have no evidence to support your claim.We are discussign the "when". We are discussing who shall be witness to his return....those two thousand years ago or those today or the future. You have yet to actually give any scripture which states its far in the future. You have given plenty on what it will look like, but nothing on a time frame. You havent even disputed anything regarding a time frame of two thousand years ago.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does Matthew also state, in chapter 26?
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." More preaching, but not addressing the issue. More preaching, but not addressing the issue. This has no bearing upon our debate. Sheesh Jay, can you ever stay on course???? This has no bearing upon our debate. We are not disussing his first arrival, we are debating the end times.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The kicker is that he is talking to the high priest and the council! Notice Jesus states YOU will see him. And there you have it! Simple apologetics! I was waiting for you to say that! Bc Jesus does not say that! You want god to NOT be the author of confusion, then you make the Bible as confusing as possible.Jesus tells the high priest he will see him on clouds returning. NEVER does Jesus say he would be in Hades, dead. Nothing even infers this.Tell me Jay, where does it say that? If it does not say it, you're adding it. This is exactly why apologetics will never lose an argument. You can make up anything you desire to make it work.Near=Far. Nearby=Faraway. Soon=not soon. Close=not close. Immediately=Slowly.Try debating a Muslim fundamentalist. You could not produce on error in the entire Quran. Not one. Wanna know why? Bc they use apologetics. No matter what is actually stated, just make up something!Its amazing that you keep critisizing me, yet its YOU who keeps inventing solutions not backed by scripture.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Produce evidence thats what Jesus was refering to. You cannot You're inventing a solution without a shred of evidence.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Revelation 22: 12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.Here again we have this matter soon. Which again, has no bearing upon our debate. The fact remains, Jesus once again states he is coming soon. Not far off in the future.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Now go back to Matthew 16: 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. This has no bearing upon our debate. The fact remains Jesus states he is coming with his angels. THEN he shall reward every man. It matters not how many times he rewards man. What does matter is that that he shall return with his angels...which is the end times.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------It backs it up perfectly! Jesus not only admits he is coming SOON, but with angels to reward mankind! This has no bearing upon our debate. I dont believe and have had a wonderful life.Jay, I'm serious. I enjoy debating. But I cannot sit here typing for over an hour when you're not actually debating anything. So far, 90% of your post could have been discarded. The other ten percent you dont even use evidence, you just give an apologetic excuse. PLEASE, stop preaching and just focus on what the key issues are. How many times now have I stated your viewpoint has no bearing upon our debate. I dont care how wonderful the lives of Christians are. Muslims and other religions could make the same claim! It has NOTHING to do with our debate.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has no bearing upon our debate. Jesus is refering to his return each and every time I have presented "soon", "nearby',"around the corner" etcIn fact, all your verse states is that after we die, we are judged. No time frame is given. This is ANOTHER moot point.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This has no bearing upon our debate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nope. Every instance I used refers to his return. There isnt any "moral" sense to it. Its his arrival. Plain and simple.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay, there isnt a single verse in the entire NT that states Jesus is returning far in the future. This has no bearing upon our debate. The future is one second after his point. EVERY verse of course is the future. But as usual, you didnt address what I stated. I said FAR in the future. Every verse the authors use is CLOSE.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nope. Im using scripture. YOU'RE the one who is dictating time. I have changed nothing. I have assume nothing. EVERY word I have used dictates his disciples would be witnesses and he is returning soon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------I deleted more preaching on your part.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jumping back to Matthew 24, since you were saying "when" earlier, Jesus gives the signs for the end times. He then states:
29"IMMEDIATELY after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]Notice, a time frame is given! Please do not tell me IMMEDIATELY means 2000 years later! Most of this is a moot point. But I will address one issue since you FINALLY showed some evidence for your claims. Except, its the wrong evidence.Yes, there will be calamties. Natural ones, supernatural ones. Except as usual, you missed the key issue!What is IMMEDIATELY refering to?It refers to: 15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniellet the reader understand 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electif that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.In other words AFTER the disciples witness everything during THEIR lifetime....yes its their lifetime, then IMMEDIATELY further signs will be upon them! Reread it Jay!They will witness the desolation. They will run for the hills.The distress will be NOTHING like the world has ever seen!Jesus is refering to the end times! NOTHING since the beginning of the earth can compare to this event! In other words, the cataclysmic end times are already starting! His discples will be witness to it!What happens when this occurs? IMMEDIATELY after this event:29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]30"At that timeSo IMMEDIATELY after the start of the end times, when everything comes crashing down.....NOT FAR OFF, IMMEDIATELY......the sun and moon will be darkened, the heavens will shake!Then what occurs?the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.I deleted the rest of your preaching...............Jay, the only way you can make this work is by ignoring the context, ignoring the "you", changing the meanings of words.....I would love to keep this friendly debat going...but I cannot type for over and hour each time, when most of your posts are nothing but preaching, speaking to people reading our debate and throwing in scripture which doesnt address anyting I bring up.Please, SHORTEN your posts. Focus on the issues presented. Nearly your entire post has NOTHING to do with our debate.If you want to continue, please, let me know. But please, stop your strawman arguments.How many times have I tried to keep things simple by asking a yes or no question...and you go on for about 500 words????In your entire diatribe you offered ZERO evidence on any of the scirpture I presented.Let me know if you wish to continue. If so, please let me get to your other posts first. Then when you respond to this one, do NOT address every statement I made. I think there is only two key points in the entire post.ThanksEdited by hERICtic, : No reason given.