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Author Topic:   'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 271 of 479 (562890)
06-02-2010 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by PaulK
06-02-2010 8:59 AM


The portion of my post that you quote gives my reasons explaining why the text in question was not rewritten.
I understood that. I thought you were implying that the re-writing occured after then.
The question, therefore, is a complete non-sequitur. I will be happy to address any genuine questions about my post - but not to go off-topic addressing questions which do not even have a basis in what I have written.
Okay. Then could you tell me exactly how your comment relates to the OP - people in the audience of Jesus during His discourse, in Matthew 16 or 24, or 1 Thess 4. (now deceased) disproves the literal truth of the Bible ?
Clarify for me your point as it relates to the OP.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by PaulK, posted 06-02-2010 8:59 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by PaulK, posted 06-02-2010 11:03 AM jaywill has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 272 of 479 (562896)
06-02-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by jaywill
06-02-2010 10:43 AM


quote:
I understood that. I thought you were implying that the re-writing occured after then.
Obviously you did not understand that I was offering an explanation of why it was not rewritten. Because if you did you could not think that I was implying that it HAD been rewritten - let alone that I believed that other parts of the Gospels had been rewritten.
quote:
Okay. Then could you tell me exactly how your comment relates to the OP
I was answering Glowby's question as to why the text was not rewritten. That was why I quoted his question in my post. Which is at least about the text that this topic is discussed - unlike your questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jaywill, posted 06-02-2010 10:43 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 273 of 479 (562902)
06-02-2010 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by glowby
05-31-2010 9:32 PM


What confuses me is this: Why would the authors, translators, and re-translators of the Bible keep the passage that you cited? As was argued well, it describes a failed prophecy of Jesus, and makes him appear sort of like an ancient doomsday cult leader - with an imminent doom. Why do you suppose this error was never corrected in the verbal and/or written versions of this tale?
1.) There is no evidence that they regarded it as a "failed prophecy".
2.) They were faithful to record problematic sayings of Jesus, potentially embassessing sayings of Jesus, difficult or impossible to obey sayings of Jesus, perplexing sayings of Jesus.
I imagine that they together agreed "This is big. This is really big. We need to write these things down while we are still alive that future people may see what this man Jesus taught and did."
It is fair to say that over the centries pre-millennial and post millennial theologies do evidence that Christians have disagreed on how to interpret certain words of Christ related to His bringing to earth the kingdom of God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by glowby, posted 05-31-2010 9:32 PM glowby has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by hERICtic, posted 06-02-2010 6:18 PM jaywill has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 274 of 479 (562937)
06-02-2010 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by jaywill
06-02-2010 9:37 AM


jaywill writes:
That is better then saying it will never happen.
I also think it is honest. No one knows the future, so no one can make absolute statements about it. But thank you.
But the future is not totally in our hands.
Of course not, there is always natural disaster, or accidents, to consider.
Let me put it this way. If I had life to live over again I would only ask that I turned to the Lord Jesus sooner. Then I would have more time to enjoy His love and His indwelling presence.
To each is own I guess. I'm glad you found joy in your life though, even if it comes at the cost of sometimes being irrational.
Aside from the things which are good and bad, there is a kind of force, a kind of nature compeling us to do what we hate, and restraining us from doing the good that we love.
Not that I have noticed. Now of course, my life hasn't been terribly difficult, I will admit, but I honestly can't recall an action I took of which at the time I thought "No, better not do this, this is bad". Or didn't take an action even though I thought "Hey, if I did this, that would be really good!". When I think those things, I either do it, or don't do it, according to my thoughts. That is not to say I did some stupid stuff, but never at the time of doing those things did I ever feel like they were stupid things to do.
Behind the "things" there is a power operating in us. So some say we are not sinners because we sinned. Rather we sin because we have this sin nature causing us to.
Never noticed it then.
If you remove the weeds from the surface it seems that they grow back. Something also in man is "sprouting" up this sinful behavior. Getting to the root of the problem means a cure deeper than the symptoms.
Seeing as I'm not experiencing the problem, I think I can do wthout the cure.
That is very good. You are an upstanding and ethical person.
Thank you. You seem to be one as well, even though you do need "god" to "threaten" you into doing good stuff (this is not meant negatively).
But are you glorious? Jesus was not only good. Jesus was gloriously good. He was good with a radiance and splendour which is glorious.
Uhm... no? So what? What does this even mean?
The Gospels says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
And I say we haven't. Oh look! a stalemate.
And if you should live absolutely perfectly from this day onward, what about the failures of the past ? What will erase the record before God of the past transgressions even if you should be gloriously righteous from today on ?
Nothing, nor should anything. We should learn to live with the mistakes we make, not believe really hard in something and suddenly everything is alright. I don't mean to go Godwin on your ass, but what if Hitler had really, deeply and utterly repented and accepted Jesus, would god then allow him into heave just like that? Don't you see a problem with that (substitute Hitler for a baby raping infant killer, who killed and raped 600 babies, if the Godwin gets too great)?
Imagine a shop of vases where an earthquake has occured. All of the vases are lying around broken in pieces.
Some are broken into a hundred pieces. Some are borken into fifty pieces. Some are broken into twenty pieces. Some into ten, seven, or even five pieces.
Let's say some vases are broken into only TWO large pieces. Now the ones broken into TWO large pieces may say "Well, at least I am not as bad as that one over there. He's broken into twelve shattered pieces. I am only broken into TWO pieces."
The one broken into fewer pieces may seem to be in better condition then the others. But the point is that they are ALL broken. None are whole. All have lost their function and ability to do what they were designed to do.
And all can be repaired, it's just a matter of how much energy you want to put into it.
In the same way, there are sinners who can compare themselves to other sinners and say "Well, I am not as bad as this other sinner." But in the eyes of God "All have sinned". All have fallen short of the glory of God.
Sure, whatever. None have sinned in my eyes, and the stalemate is back again. Now I know you don't think my opinion equal to that of god, but honestly, what I've read of god, I don't think much of his opinion anyway. Now that Jesus fellow, he had some good ideas, some pretty stupid ones as well, but meh, nobody's perfect, eh?
We need not to stand up next to each other. We need to stand up next to the Son of God. John chapter 3 tries to convey this.
Nicodemus was a very good citizen. His name means "Victor of the people". He was humble. He was very smart. He was a good man. Jesus told Nicodemus that he MUST be born from above. He told him that he must be born of God - born again. He needed a new nature born into his being. That is a nature that he was not naturally born with. He needed God to implant a new nature into his being causing him to be born from God, and born again.
Jesus said it "must" be so.
So? I say it mustn't. Oh, there's that stalemate again. As long as you live a good life, I don't give a hoot why you do it. If it doesn't bother anyone else, go your merry way I say.
I have been called away for a bit.
Uhm... ok, I guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by jaywill, posted 06-02-2010 9:37 AM jaywill has not replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 275 of 479 (562961)
06-02-2010 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by jaywill
06-02-2010 11:48 AM


Comtemporaries of Jesus. All those alive during the life of Jesus until their death.
Jay writes:
Then you admit that Jesus was using Himself as the paramater.
Actually there are quite a few parameters. You ignored every one of them.
Jay writes:
He did not remain dead but rose from the dead and lives forever.
Jesus rose from the dead after three days of being crucified. So those still alive when He resurrected would be of His generation. So those born on the day of His resurrection would be of His generation. And those born from any time after that throughout the last 2000 some years would also be contemporary to the living and resurrected Jesus.
Thats actually a great explanation. Except for one "small" problem.
You're ignoring the ENTIRE context again.
34I tell you the truth, THIS generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
"This" refers back to the story Jesus is previously telling. What do we know prior to verse 34?
1) Disciples will hear of rumors and wars.
2) Nations against nations.
3) Earthquakes.
Once that occurs, ths following will happen.
4) Disciples will be persecuted.
5) Many will turn away from their faith.
6) False prophets will appear.
7) Increase of wickedness.
All this Jesus states will occur during the lifetime of the disciples.
Now remember, his followers asked WHEN the end times will occur. Jesus is giving a play by play.
It makes no sense to tell his disciples this will occur during their lifetime, that its the end times...if its not to occur for 2000 more years.
8) His disciples will see the desolation.
9) People who are in Judea should flee to the mountains.
10) No one should go back for their belongings.
11) It will be horrible for those pregnant.
12) This calamity will be worse than ANYTHING in the past.
Jay, this is the end times Jesus is describing. His disciples are part of it. All of it. They will be witness to this event that will be worse than any event preceding it.
13) People will claim to be false Christs.
Jesus proceeds to tell his disciples that he has warned them!
Why would Jesus warn them if its to occur 2000 years later?
14) IMMEDIATELY after all this, the sun will be darkened.
15) The moon will not give off her light.
16) Stars will fall from they sky (Jesus wasnt very good at astronomy)
17) Heavenly bodies will shake.
18) AT THAT TIME JESUS WILL RETURN.
After everything the disciples will witness, IMMEDIATELY:Jesus will return.
So what do we know. ALL of this will occur during his disciples lifetime.
So then:
33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
"THIS generation" logically refers to what Jesus has described. Who is to see ALL these things? His disciples!
But wait, there is more! Jesus is still talking to his disciples:
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Who is to keep watch? His disciples! Who is to be ready? His disciples!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by jaywill, posted 06-02-2010 11:48 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jaywill, posted 06-03-2010 9:24 AM hERICtic has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 276 of 479 (563100)
06-03-2010 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by hERICtic
06-02-2010 6:18 PM


Heretic:
Comtemporaries of Jesus. All those alive during the life of Jesus until their death.
Jay writes:
Then you admit that Jesus was using Himself as the paramater.
Heretic:
Actually there are quite a few parameters. You ignored every one of them.
You did not give quite a few parameters. You gave ONE: "the contemporaries of Jesus".
My last argument is based on assumping that YOUR definition "generation" as "the contemporaries of Jesus" is what He meant. I am assuming now your own definition for argument's sake.
Now you want to go back and load more meaning onto the word "generation".
Jay writes:
He did not remain dead but rose from the dead and lives forever.
Jesus rose from the dead after three days of being crucified. So those still alive when He resurrected would be of His generation. So those born on the day of His resurrection would be of His generation. And those born from any time after that throughout the last 2000 some years would also be contemporary to the living and resurrected Jesus.
Thats actually a great explanation. Except for one "small" problem.
You're ignoring the ENTIRE context again.
I am using your paramters of the contemporaries of Jesus.
34I tell you the truth, THIS generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
According to your supplied definition of generation - THIS generation means this group of His contemporaries.
If one of the people in the crowd had died in 24 hours would "THIS generation" still exist? I say yes.
If someone was born in the next 48 hours would she be a part of "THIS generation". I say yes.
As long as Jesus is alive "THIS generation" exists.
He died. And you could say that the generation was suspended. But He did not remain dead. He arose and His generation resumed. He still lives today and so His generation, "THIS generation" continues.
Now let me ask you a question about His words:
"Heaven and earth shall pass away but My words shall by no means pass away."
Do these words of Jesus imply that His sayings about the second coming are important to people into the far future or not?
If His words are so reliable that their importance will even outlast the physical universe, then after 20 years, 60 years, 200 years, 600 years, 1500 years, 2000 years, 2800 years, etc. His words are important.
In essence what the Son of God is saying here is something like this:
Paraphrased - "My words concerning these matters is so reliable and so important that no matter WHAT happens, remember them, trust in them, stake your life on them. They cannot fail. It is easier for the universe to dissolve then for these words to be vain or futile."
Since the first century AD there have been earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars, famines, persecutions of Jews and of Christians. No one can deny that there have been calamities and troubles on earth.
The Roman general Titus came into Jerusalem and wreaked terrible havoc on the Jewish inhabitants. Ceasar Nero terribly persecuted Christians to death.
By Jesus' words that His words were so trustworthy as to outlast the physical creation He armed and equiped His believers for both the short run, the long run, and the VERY long run. We are to keep holding on to His promise no matter what.
Heaven and earth may pass away. But His words concerning His second coming will not pass away.
In the mean time, though all these trials He is gaining the inside beings of His people. He is using troubles to drive them out of themselves and into the God of resurrection. He is building New Jerusalem throughout the centries by dispensing God's life and nature into man and using trials to saturate men and women with the Spirit of the resurrected Christ.
As the apostle Paul stated:
"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us.
We are pressed on every side but not constricted; unable to find a way out but not utterly without a way out;
Persecuted but not abandoned; cast down but not destroyed;
Always bearing about in the body the putting to death of Jesus that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
So then death operates us, but life in you." (2 Cor. 4:7-12)
The troubles of the apostles and servants of Christ have caused the treasure of His divine life to be more and more manifested in their mortal bodies. It is God's business to torture test the indwelling Christ so that God living in man would be manifested through 2000 years of attacks against the faith from without and from within.
So Jesus emphasized that the believers were to hang on to His promise of eventual vindication no matter what. And that is most likely why He did not pinpoint the exact date of His second coming.
"This" refers back to the story Jesus is previously telling. What do we know prior to verse 34?
1) Disciples will hear of rumors and wars.
2) Nations against nations.
3) Earthquakes.
How many years does He specify from the time they hear of wars and rumors of wars ? No number is given.
How many years does He specify from the time nation rises against nation? Again, no number is given.
How many years from the time of earthquakes does He give?
No number is given.
Since no number is given you cannot say that a number is incorrect.
Once that occurs, ths following will happen.
4) Disciples will be persecuted.
5) Many will turn away from their faith.
6) False prophets will appear.
7) Increase of wickedness.
After each of these how many years does Jesus say will pass
before He has His second coming?
No number of years is supplied.
There are three places in the book of Revelation which indicate that the great tribulation will last three and one half years.
I can't think of any number of years given from his discourse to the beginning of this last three and one half year great tribulation. So I cannot say 2000 years is too much or too few.
All this Jesus states will occur during the lifetime of the disciples.
You previously agreed that we would use Jesus Christ's life as the paramater. That is contemporaries of Him.
Now you seem to want to change that to be contemporaries of Peter and John and the disciples.
I think the last of the twelve disciples to die was John. So according to your rational if the second coming of Christ did not occur before the death of John then it is a failed prophecy.
All I can say is, if you Heretic, want to believe that, you go ahead and believe that. You go ahead and run with that. That is that Jesus words in Matthew 24 are a failed prophecy.
I am going to run with a different belief from you. I am going to run with this:
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away ... What I say to you I say to all, Watch !"
Now remember, his followers asked WHEN the end times will occur. Jesus is giving a play by play.
WHEN ... point out the calendar date.
He answered them. He did not answer them according to your concept of pinpointing a certain number of years.
It makes no sense to tell his disciples this will occur during their lifetime, that its the end times...if its not to occur for 2000 more years.
Throughout the centries there are many Christians who were stengthened, encouraged, sustained, supplied with hope and steadfastness because of Jesus' words in Matthew 24.
In your style it makes no sense. To God's plan it makes plenty of sense that they had His words to keep them in endurance. Christ was manifested in their mortal bodies.
Spend some time to read a chapter or two of Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
8) His disciples will see the desolation.
9) People who are in Judea should flee to the mountains.
10) No one should go back for their belongings.
11) It will be horrible for those pregnant.
12) This calamity will be worse than ANYTHING in the past.
Jay, this is the end times Jesus is describing. His disciples are part of it. All of it. They will be witness to this event that will be worse than any event preceding it.
13) People will claim to be false Christs.
Jesus proceeds to tell his disciples that he has warned them!
Why would Jesus warn them if its to occur 2000 years later?
14) IMMEDIATELY after all this, the sun will be darkened.
15) The moon will not give off her light.
16) Stars will fall from they sky (Jesus wasnt very good at astronomy)
17) Heavenly bodies will shake.
18) AT THAT TIME JESUS WILL RETURN.
After everything the disciples will witness, IMMEDIATELY:Jesus will return.
So what do we know. ALL of this will occur during his disciples lifetime.
So then:
33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
"THIS generation" logically refers to what Jesus has described. Who is to see ALL these things? His disciples!
But wait, there is more! Jesus is still talking to his disciples:
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Who is to keep watch? His disciples! Who is to be ready? His disciples!
I feel kind of sorry for you. You are hanging all you hopes in Christ not being real on a belief in the unreliability of an alledged failed prophecy.
It seems that you hope, you hope, you hope He was wrong.
I think you are setting yourself up for a very bitter disappointment. It would be much better to adopt Peter's and Paul's attitude before they died.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by hERICtic, posted 06-02-2010 6:18 PM hERICtic has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by ramoss, posted 06-03-2010 11:02 AM jaywill has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 277 of 479 (563114)
06-03-2010 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by jaywill
06-03-2010 9:24 AM


quote:
According to your supplied definition of generation - THIS generation means this group of His contemporaries.
If one of the people in the crowd had died in 24 hours would "THIS generation" still exist? I say yes.
If someone was born in the next 48 hours would she be a part of "THIS generation". I say yes.
Are you of the same generation as Lincoln? The answer is obviously 'No' since there is no one alive when Lincoln was alive when you were born.
Generally speaking, if someone is born 20 years or more from another person, they are considered in 'a different generation'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by jaywill, posted 06-03-2010 9:24 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by jaywill, posted 06-03-2010 2:05 PM ramoss has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 278 of 479 (563139)
06-03-2010 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by ramoss
06-03-2010 11:02 AM


Are you of the same generation as Lincoln? The answer is obviously 'No' since there is no one alive when Lincoln was alive when you were born.
That is different Ramoss. Lincoln did not resurrect from the dead like Jesus.
Generally speaking, if someone is born 20 years or more from another person, they are considered in 'a different generation'
For argument's sake I adopted the position that "this generation" was meant to be the comtemporaries of Jesus.
Now if you believe that Jesus is dead then the case of Lincoln would be similar. If you believe as Jesus taught and affirmed that He is "the resurrection and the life" then I am a contemporary of Jesus in the year 2010 AD.
The western world adopted a view of history the birth of Jesus and forward, were the years of our Lord, meaning we live in the years of the resurrected and exalted Christ Jesus, Lord - Anno Domini or Year of our Lord referring to the year of Christ’s birth.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by ramoss, posted 06-03-2010 11:02 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by ramoss, posted 06-03-2010 3:38 PM jaywill has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 279 of 479 (563158)
06-03-2010 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by jaywill
06-03-2010 2:05 PM


quote:
That is different Ramoss. Lincoln did not resurrect from the dead like Jesus.
That is totally not relevant to what a 'generation' is. As a matter of fact, that is one big red herring.
quote:
For argument's sake I adopted the position that "this generation" was meant to be the comtemporaries of Jesus.
Now if you believe that Jesus is dead then the case of Lincoln would be similar. If you believe as Jesus taught and affirmed that He is "the resurrection and the life" then I am a contemporary of Jesus in the year 2010 AD.
The western world adopted a view of history the birth of Jesus and forward, were the years of our Lord, meaning we live in the years of the resurrected and exalted Christ Jesus, Lord - Anno Domini or Year of our Lord referring to the year of Christ’s birth.
And for the sake of the argument, every one of the people who were contemporary with Jesus is now dead. Jesus himself 'Tasted death', if you accept the bible. Therefore, the entire passage is a failed prediction.
The only way you are attempting to 'prove the literal truth' of that is so distorting language as to bend it out of shape and massacre it. And the fact the western world was under the domination of the Catholic Church so long that it adopted their dating system is relevant to the meaning of 'this generation'. That is a massive red herring.
If you have to do 'Theology by jigsaw puzzle' to justify your beliefs there is something seriously wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by jaywill, posted 06-03-2010 2:05 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by jaywill, posted 06-03-2010 5:59 PM ramoss has not replied
 Message 281 by jaywill, posted 06-03-2010 6:13 PM ramoss has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 280 of 479 (563181)
06-03-2010 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by ramoss
06-03-2010 3:38 PM


And for the sake of the argument, every one of the people who were contemporary with Jesus is now dead. Jesus himself 'Tasted death', if you accept the bible. Therefore, the entire passage is a failed prediction.
Yes, Hebrews 2:9 does say that Jesus tasted death on behalf of everything.
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything." .
What else does Hebrews say? It says that "He lives always" and "abides forever."
"But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable. Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He LIVES ALWAYS to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:24,25 my emphasis )
So I am a contemporary of the living Jesus Christ.
And so are you, an unbelieving contemporary.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by ramoss, posted 06-03-2010 3:38 PM ramoss has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 281 of 479 (563182)
06-03-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by ramoss
06-03-2010 3:38 PM


The only way you are attempting to 'prove the literal truth' of that is so distorting language as to bend it out of shape and massacre it. And the fact the western world was under the domination of the Catholic Church so long that it adopted their dating system is relevant to the meaning of 'this generation'. That is a massive red herring.
If you have to do 'Theology by jigsaw puzzle' to justify your beliefs there is something seriously wrong.
Can you find any indication in the discourse of Christ concerning His second coming that hints that He might delay His coming?
In the parable of the ten virgins He used the word delayed.
"And while the bridegroom [meaning Jesus] DELAYED, they [ten virgins] all became drowsy and slept." (Matt. 25:5)
Sleep here could indicate that the waiting disciples would die, and be resurrected latter to go forth and meet their Bridegroom as the parable states.
You have to admit that the thought of Christ in this parable is that the expectant disciples had to go through a delaying of the coming of their Bridegroom Christ.
We are not told how long the delay is. But He does prepare them through this parable to endure delay.
Then negatively Christ also gave a teaching warning the disciples of the temptation to act badly because of the delay:
"But if the evil slave says in his heart, My master DELAYS, and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eats and drinks with the drunken, the master of that slave will come in a day when he does not expect him ..." (Matt. 24:48-50)
So while we take His words about the urgency "this generation," however we interpret "generation", we also should take His words equiping His audience for potential "delay".
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by ramoss, posted 06-03-2010 3:38 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by ramoss, posted 06-03-2010 9:44 PM jaywill has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 282 of 479 (563208)
06-03-2010 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by jaywill
06-03-2010 6:13 PM


quote:
Can you find any indication in the discourse of Christ concerning His second coming that hints that He might delay His coming?
In the parable of the ten virgins He used the word delayed.
"And while the bridegroom [meaning Jesus] DELAYED, they [ten virgins] all became droqwsy and slept." (Matt. 25:5)
In other words, 'This generation' does not mean 'this generation' because of vague symbolism you wish to interpret in a way that has nothing to do with the passages talking about 'This generation'.
Obviously, you want to read into the parable, rather than take from the parable. It has nothing to do with 'this generation' or not. You are stretching one word.. 'tarried' in the KJV, and boost up it's importance so much you are missing the meaning of the entire parable.
That is jig saw puzzle theology, and you miss the picture for trying to figure out a cryptograph that isn't there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by jaywill, posted 06-03-2010 6:13 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by jaywill, posted 06-04-2010 2:48 AM ramoss has replied

  
glowby
Member
Posts: 75
From: Fox River Grove, IL
Joined: 05-29-2010


Message 283 of 479 (563222)
06-03-2010 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by jaywill
06-02-2010 6:44 AM


Spin
jaywill writes:
What is preventing you from living up to your own moral code ?
Nothing, except for myself on rare occasions.
jaywill writes:
I would like to ask you if you indeed do live up to your own moral code ?
Yes, I do quite well. When I falter, I use my regret to strengthen my resolve, ask forgiveness from those I may have hurt, and then forgive myself in time. Through interactions with people and introspection, my code becomes better defined, as with all decent people. I think you have to live life to learn and apply the Golden Rule well.
Do you think the convoluted and contradictory text in parts of the Bible make it a poor guide to morality and truth, for those who aren't skilled at coercing these words into a cohesive and comprehensible meaning? It seems you have to think like an ancient Hebrew and spin like a radio talk show host, to even get the gist of some parts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jaywill, posted 06-02-2010 6:44 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by jaywill, posted 06-04-2010 7:45 AM glowby has replied

  
glowby
Member
Posts: 75
From: Fox River Grove, IL
Joined: 05-29-2010


Message 284 of 479 (563224)
06-03-2010 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by PaulK
06-02-2010 6:58 AM


Jesus freak outs?
PaulK writes:
By the time that the Gospels were written - by mainstream dates - the prophecy had not OBVIOUSLY failed.
Ah...Often imitated, never duplicated...The Original Christian Doomsday Cult! (OC/DC?) Imagine the world today if they had been into suicide as well...
Many of you here are very serious scholars of the Bible. During your coursework, when issues like this failed prophecy became clear, did you or any of your classmates ever kind of freak out? Was faith sometimes damaged?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by PaulK, posted 06-02-2010 6:58 AM PaulK has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 285 of 479 (563235)
06-04-2010 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by ramoss
06-03-2010 9:44 PM


In other words, 'This generation' does not mean 'this generation' because of vague symbolism you wish to interpret in a way that has nothing to do with the passages talking about 'This generation'.
Aside from a typical human lifespan the word "generation" is used in other ways in the Bible. Generation can also be defined by a moral condition:
A generation characterized by unbelief:
"And He answered them and said, O unbelieving generation! How long shall I be with you? " (Mark 9:19)
A generation characterized by being crooked and perverted:
"That you may be blameless and guileless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverted generation ..." (Phil. 2:15)
A unbelieving and perverted generation:
"O unbelieving and perverted generation ..." (Luke 9:41)
A prudent generation:
" ... for the sons of this age are more prudent in their dealings with their own generation than the sons of light." (Luke 16:9)
A generation disobedient to their parents:
"There is a generation that curse their father, and do not bless their mother. " (Prov 30:11)
A generation that is self righteous:
"There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet they are not washed from their filthiness." (Prov 30:12)
A generation characterized by pride:
"There is a generation - oh how lofty are their eyes, and their eyelids are raised [arrogantly]. " (Prov. 30:13)
A generation characterized by mean speech and selfishness:
"There is a generation whose teeth are like swords, and their jaw teeth like knives, to devour the afflicted from off the earth, and the needy from among men." (Prov. 30:14)
These are examples of generation defined by moral condition. And I believe that it is in these sense the word was intended in Matthew 24:34.
"Truly I say to you that this generation shall by no means pass away until all these things happen."
In the discourse about last things four times Jesus warns the disciples not to be led astray. The major characteristic of this generation is one of leading people AWAY from the truth of God. And this generation, characterized by that moral condition, prone to wander away from the truth of God, should not pass away until all these things, (ALL of them) should come to pass.
For the sake of argument I adopted the typical meaning of lifespan to the word. But that major component was the lifespan of the speaker Jesus. In that case His generation endured a brief interruption but resumed and continued at His resurrection.
Finally, I adopted for arguments's sake the life span of one of his disciples, ie. Peter or John. But from the writings of these two disciples, they apparently did not take it as a failed prophecy either. Rather they prepared their audience to continue in the faith after their expected death.
Why would they NOT thus arm themselves? God did not immediatly grant Abraham the total promises that were given to him. They knew that they were dealing with the same God.
God did not immediately grant David all that was promised him. And they were dealing with the same God.
God did not immediately grant Moses all that was promised him. Moses saw the good land but was not allowed at that time to enter into it. You have to be foolish to assume all these lessons of faith in the OT escaped the NT discples. They knew they were dealing with the same God.
Obviously, you want to read into the parable, rather than take from the parable. It has nothing to do with 'this generation' or not.
The two teachings came out of the mouth of Jesus Himself. And in those teachings He used the word "delayed". Both teachings are spiritual and moral preparations for the disciples to meet the Lord Jesus. This is not insignificant.
You are stretching one word.. 'tarried' in the KJV, and boost up it's importance so much you are missing the meaning of the entire parable.
I am examining ALL the provided evidence of what was in the mind of Christ on the subject matter.
Though no specific time amount is defined on the word "delayed" (tarried), the word is used. And some of us do not ignore it. It is in fact what has occured.
While Jesus delayed His second coming the original disciples grew drowsy and slept. This could mean that they died and slept in death. It could also mean that the apostles became innattentive and allowed false Christians and heresys to infiltrate the brotherhood.
This is historically realistic. And much latter at the midnight, ie. the darkest time in world history, the Bridegroom Christ finally returns. And at that time the drowsy disciples who "slept" arise in resurrection and go to meet the returning Christ.
Such an interpretation is not fanciful at all. It well fits what is going on in church history.
That is jig saw puzzle theology, and you miss the picture for trying to figure out a cryptograph that isn't there.
No one said that the Bible is always easy to understand. And in the Old Testament God did tell His people that His revelation would be to them line upon line, here a little and there a little:
"For his words are: Rule upon rule, rule upon rule; Line upon line, line upon line;
Here a little, there a little .... Therefore Jehovah's word to them will be Rule upon rule, rule upon rule; line upon line, line upon line;
Here a little, there a little ... " Isaiah 28:10,13)
However, in all of the discourse of the second coming of Christ and the last things there is one simplistic lesson which cannot be mistaken. And that is that His followers are to watch and be ready. They are to live in the light of His sudden unexpected arrival.
This spiritual lesson is unmistakenly straighforward, simple. Since the time is not known by anyone, the Christians must supplement their ignorance of it with vigilance and readiness.
As the apostle John wrote:
"Beloved now are we the children of God, and it has not yet been manifested what we will be. We know that if He is manifested we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is.
And everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is pure." (1 John 3:2,3)
So this is not at all a matter of failed prophecy. It is a matter of Christ seeking to gain a people on earth like Enoch who walked with God. And one day he was taken.
Your priority is to prove a failed prophecy based on a non-existent date of His return. God's priorities are more along the line of securing a people like Enoch who know judgment is coming and therefore walk vigilantly with God.
The day will eventually come when some of them will be taken before the great tribulation. And those who are alive and left remaining will have passed through it, and be taken at the end of the great tribulation. (1 Thess 4:17).
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by ramoss, posted 06-03-2010 9:44 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by ramoss, posted 06-04-2010 9:13 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 289 by hERICtic, posted 06-04-2010 10:25 AM jaywill has replied

  
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