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Author Topic:   Is personal faith a debatable topic?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 9 of 85 (562920)
06-02-2010 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by tesla
06-02-2010 12:11 PM


Re: yes.
You seem to be conflating the extrapolation of common experience with faith.
such as the green light example
A few near misses or even being run over as a result of assuming safety when a green light shows will soon overturn that which you are calling "faith" in this example.
What comparable experience would overturn deep faith in an undetectable, empirically un-disprovable immaterial entity? For example.

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 Message 8 by tesla, posted 06-02-2010 12:11 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by tesla, posted 06-02-2010 6:46 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 12 of 85 (562978)
06-02-2010 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by tesla
06-02-2010 6:46 PM


Giving The Green Light To Faith
Look if I assume that I can safely cross the road without triple checking when the pedestrian light turns green it is because I have crossed thousands of roads hundreds of thousands of times successfully using this method. Familiarity breeds nonchalance and contempt. Experience not faith is the basis of my road crossing behaviour.
Change the experience - I.e. keep getting run over - And I will change my assumptions and ultimately my behaviour.
So explain to me how your comparison of road crossing and faith in God is anything other than a misplaced conflation of entirely different phenomenon?

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 Message 10 by tesla, posted 06-02-2010 6:46 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by tesla, posted 06-02-2010 7:31 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 17 of 85 (562994)
06-02-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by tesla
06-02-2010 7:31 PM


Re: Giving The Green Light To Faith
So explain to me how your comparison of road crossing and faith in God is anything other than a misplaced conflation of entirely different phenomenon?
The difference is: your talking about what leads to faith. And I'm discussing faith.
I am discussing (as per the OP) how one "loses" (or is convinced away from) faith based conclusions. In the case of traffic lights a few painful experiences would be experiential reason to lose ones assumptions.
Faith is not an assumption. assumptions are based on faith.
No assumptions (such as those involved in crossing roads) are based on evidence so common that one stops even thinking of it as evidence.
Your comparison is unjustifiable.

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 Message 18 by tesla, posted 06-02-2010 8:13 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 21 of 85 (563007)
06-02-2010 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by tesla
06-02-2010 8:13 PM


Re: Giving The Green Light To Faith
It is based on my definition of faith not yours. it is justified by me. and that is who my faith is relevant to.
This thread isn't about your personal definition of faith. It is about what would convince those of faith (i.e. you) away from their beliefs.
I have told you how "faith" in lax road crossing procedures could be broken by evidential experience. So unless you can spell out the comparable evidential experience that would lead you away from your belief in an ethereal being your "green light" comparison is blatantly misplaced and unjustified.
that being true, how do you think it will change?
That is my question to you.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by hooah212002, posted 06-02-2010 8:51 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 25 by tesla, posted 06-02-2010 10:36 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 30 of 85 (563069)
06-03-2010 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by tesla
06-02-2010 10:36 PM


Re: Giving The Green Light To Faith
This thread isn't about your personal definition of faith. It is about what would convince those of faith (i.e. you) away from their beliefs.
Exactly. But the definition of faith is not the same per individual.
You made a stupid and unjustifiable conflation between refutable assumptions borne of common experience (i.e. lax road crossing procedures) and personal faith.
So i told you mine and what it would take.
Where did you tell us? What evidence would it take to overcome your faith?

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 Message 25 by tesla, posted 06-02-2010 10:36 PM tesla has replied

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 Message 35 by tesla, posted 06-03-2010 10:49 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 31 of 85 (563070)
06-03-2010 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by hooah212002
06-02-2010 8:51 PM


Re: Giving The Green Light To Faith
It is about what would convince those of faith (i.e. you) away from their beliefs.
Not exactly. What I wanted to address was how to discuss faith based topics with believers when those topics can (and/or have been) proven to be wrong empirically. I am in no way trying to disprove or even discuss, say, the trinity or that jesus is the son of god, oranything else in that category.
Your examples are on point, I just wanted to clarify that bit.
Point taken.
I shall limit my discussion to those things that can be empirically refuted.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 42 of 85 (563279)
06-04-2010 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by tesla
06-03-2010 10:49 PM


Re: Giving The Green Light To Faith
Prove to me i do not exist. And I will let go of my faith.
You do exist because the Immaterial Pink Unicorn wills it so. You also believe in false gods because she is a wicked trickster. Prove otherwise to me and I might take your requirements more seriously.
Prove to me i do not exist. And I will let go of my faith.
If your faith is empirically irrefutable then you have no place discussing your faith in this thread. The topic is how to go about challenging those who have faith in that which is empirically refutable.
Faith in the biblical flood and things of that nature presumably.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 45 of 85 (563341)
06-04-2010 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Buzsaw
06-04-2010 12:56 AM


Start A BB Thread?
My recourse, then, was to cite their alleged/unproven BB singularity thesis premise on which they based their arguments supportive to the BB singularity thesis premise.
Buz if you want to start a thread on the evidence on which the BB is founded I will take part in that with you.
It has been a while since you and I crossed swords on that issue eh?
But it isn't the topic of this thread.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 71 of 85 (564027)
06-07-2010 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by onifre
06-07-2010 6:05 PM


Re: My 2 cents
A faux-pas? lol. What is this Sex and the City and you just wore white after spring?
Straggler (in girly shrieky voice): Uh oh gosh did I leave my bedroom web cam on again? I was only trying them on in prep for next season!
Some people feel you can't because it is a sacred belief that shouldn't be questioned. But personally I feel that's bullshit. It has perhaps been the tradition, but we can change that.
People cherish all sorts of beliefs. I'm with you in that we should challenge the very attitude that says cherished beliefs should not be challenged.
He'll listen, kids are smart, they can see through adult bullshit. Just actively play a role in exposing him to good science.
Hallelujah to that. As mine get older I am enjoying this aspect more and more.
kids LOVE dinosaurs
So so so true. And space stuff doesn't come far behind. And then the questions come flowing.

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