Why is sin heritable?

Hey Larni,When I saw the title, I thought, about time someone brought that up (although my position is probably opposite); but after that your OP didn't thrill me at all.The title asks why sin is heritable and your first question is why did Yahweh make sin heritable. Two very good questions.Unfortunately the rest of your OP deals with punishment and suffering, not sin.Sin is the offense, not the punishment. Since religious and moral laws change, what is considered sin also changes.I don't see that sin is heritable or that YHWH made sin heritable.What in the Bible gives you the impression that sin is heritable or that YHWH made sin heritable?Hopefully you do want to discuss whether sin is heritable and not just another thread on punishment and suffering supposedly caused by God.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned Romans 5:12 (King James Version)

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To me this means the state of being 'in sin' is passed on through generations. Yahweh seems to have decreed that all people will start off in a state of sin.

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As Yahweh decided by fiat that this is the case Yahweh could be seen as responsible for humans being in the sate of 'sin'.

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I figured that would be the verse. Paul is the one implying that "sin" was passed through the generations, not YHWH.1. That verse is in a letter written by Paul, not God.
2. Paul is preaching, not speaking for God. (D'rash)
3. Sometimes it takes a while before Paul gets to his point.
4. Paul is personifying sin and death. Neither is a thing.His point is at verse 18. Paul isn't saying that "sin" is now gone. One still has to choose to obey, just as they did throughout the OT.From the Prophet Ezekiel Sales pitches are usually all encompassing.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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But isn't that kind of like saying that YHWH didn't make the rules, just because it isn't explicitly in the bible?

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Yes

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Why is it assumed that just because A&E sinned, that we are all wrought with sin? God created the situation, yes?

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Paul is a salesman. He personifies sin to make his point. Sin is not something to have. It is something we are capable of doing. IOW, going against the rules. A&E also had that capability before eating from the tree. In that sense, yes, God created us with the capability to disobey.One has to break a rule to be a sinner. Once restitution is made, when possible, one is no longer a sinner. The idea that we are all wrought with sin due to no action of our own, IMO, was generated from Paul's writings.

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That tells me that god did institute the inherit sin, even though it was due to A&E eating some fruit.

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I don't see how that says anything about inherent "sin". Adam and Eve were punished for their mistake. The story doesn't tell us they continued to break the rules once they left the garden. Cursing the ground is the consequence, not the action.God tells Cain he can master the urge to do wrong. Again sin is personified.

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What that amounts to, in my opinion, could equate to this: you place a bet with a bookie. You can't pay the bookie. The bookie now tortures your kids when you die even though they had nothing to do with it.

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Actually, it's more like a couple who start out with everything and make a mistake that causes them to lose everything, then they have kids. The kids will be impacted by the consequences of their parents choices, but the kids aren't being punished. They live in an apartment instead of a mansion, etc. Another good lesson from the story.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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The kids are only impacted by the actions of their patients because Yahweh decided that it should be so because he wanted it that way. He could have (in his infinite power) have chose another way.

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Yahweh could have decided that only the commiter of sin should suffer any consequences.

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Why would Yahweh choose this set of condition when he could have (in his infinite mercy) chose another way?

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You're talking about consequences, not sin. Sin is the breaking of a religious or moral law. Without a religious or moral law, one cannot sin. If you want to take the story as an actual event, I can't answer those questions. You'll have to talk to God about those questions. Neither Adam or Eve or their children were cursed with "sin". As I said, they were capable of disobeying before they ate the apple. The ability was there. Mankind still has that capability today, some people are more inclined to wickedness than others. Christians still have that capability. That capability isn't removed when they start believing.Why did YHWH give us that capability? Since we are made in his image, I would say probably because God has that capability or maybe it was something in the dirt. Doesn't most intelligent life have the capability to make bad choices or go against the norm of their group?Edited by purpledawn, : Added comment on sin.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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God formed a man from the dust of the ground. He then breathed the breath of life into him and he became a perfect living being.

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That perfect man was put in a perfect garden with one instruction not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

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You're embellishing a bit on the text, unless you are using perfect to mean completed.The text does not say the man became a perfect living being, just a living being. The text doesn't say that Eden was perfect.

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Had that man not eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would still be tending the garden today and we would not exist. Only he and the woman made from his rib would exist.

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Had God not put the tree of Knowledge of good and evil in the garden, we would have the same result. Who had better knowledge of what would likely happen?So God created mankind with the ability to make choices (whether right or wrong) and put an enticing tree in the middle of the garden, but told them it was off limits. If God didn't want mankind to have the ability to make choices, he would have destroyed all mankind in the flood. By saving Noah and his family, God allowed mankind to continue with the ability to sin. This tells us that God wanted mankind to be this way.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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False. Satan first introduced sin into the world i.e first being to sin Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin.

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False. Adam was the prototype and he was created with the ability to sin or not. The snake didn't disobey according to the story. Eve was the first to disobey and then Adam. Without a rule, there is no sin. That's why A&E could run around naked without shame. Once they ate and obtained the knowledge of good and evil, then they knew that being naked was wrong according to that culture.

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But I think Larni's question is, why was it a repeating pattern i.e why did God allow it to become a repeating pattern and not just curb it (after all,He hates it)? There has to be a reason why it is a recurring pattern i.e what theologians commonly refer to as original sin.

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That's one of the problems with trying to get more out of a children's story than intended.Even in Romans, Paul isn't saying that mankind so longer has the capability to sin. For those who feel Paul wrote Hebrews, even there it is obvious that mankind still has the ability to sin. Why God made mankind with that capability, we may never know. We can only speculate. If we go by the Genesis 1 story that says mankind is made in God's image, then we have that capability because God has that capability.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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I see no reason why YHWH should have punished their off spring, as well as A+E.

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Which is irrelevant to whether "sin" is heritable. The consequences seem to bother you more than the idea we are able to sin. Some people are more apt to sin than others. They have a "sin nature".

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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If sin is breaking of a moral law, why did YHWH decide that x was a moral law, sinning was to break that law and it was part of our nature to engage in x (i.e. to sin)?

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YHWH creates us with sin already a component of our being. He need not have done so.

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What could have informed his decision to do so?

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Again, you're asking questions the stories don't provide the answer to. Sin is not a component of our being. Sin is not a thing. Remember, Paul personifies sin, that doesn't make it a thing. People have the ability to decide what they want to do, right or wrong.Why do we make laws today? People break those laws. We call them lawbreakers. It's the same thing.In dog breeds, we can see aggressive temperaments and passive temperaments. Some temperaments are easier to train than others.We see in Native American history differences between the temperament of tribes. Some were more warlike than others.God picked the Hebrews and found out they weren't easy to train. Maybe he wanted a challenge. If you want to get rid of the ability to sin, get rid of rules. No rules, nothing to disobey. Can we really get rid of all rules in our society today?

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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I see no reason why the off spring of A+E should inherit sin.

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You're still personifying. They didn't inherit sin. Because they are a product of the prototypes which had the ability to make decisions (obey or disobey), they will also have the ability to make decisions. Just like they have the ability to feel fear, happiness, sadness, heal, etc.Notice Cain had an issue with "obeying", but Abel didn't. But God said Cain could master that urge to do wrong. Cain chose not to master the urge.The ability to decide to follow rules or not is part of human nature. We also decide when we feel a rule is unjust. Would you have it otherwise?People in the Bible stories have challenged God's decisions and God has backed off.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

I think you and I are roughly on the same wavelength concerning sin. We differ on a few things.

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Before, they simply knew the order from Yahweh and the associated consequences: death. Afterwards they understood that disobedience is sin, and by sinning they created death.

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Although Paul's personification in Romans implies death came in through Adam, the A&E story doesn't really support his line. I don't feel that A&E created death. Like sin, death is not a thing.God planted a tree of life and threatened death. So death was already possible. Actually Abel would have been the first death as far as we know in the story.I think God downgraded the disciplinary action because their decision was influenced by the snake.

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So humans had the choice: Live in paradise in obedience to Yahweh, forever unsure what the full truth was (but having faith it was in their best interests). Or they could abandon faith in favour of empiricism.

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I like that summary.

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I'm just explaining the story as I understand it from Paul's perspective. I don't believe any of it is true, but I don't believe Macbeth is true either and it's still perfectly reasonable to discuss whether the Three Witches caused Macbeth to do the things they predicted he would do. But I'm not going to start wondering how the Three Witches came to have magic, how they gained knowledge that the prophecy they were going to give would be the precisely worded prophecy that makes the prophecy come true. Sounds like a computational nightmare - but it's still a cool story.

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Exactly! Sometimes people look for more than the story can give them.For all Paul's preaching, people still have the capability to sin and die whether they are believers or not.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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And, again, what purpose does it serve to warn somebody of something they have no concept for? You have to look at this in context and not how you understand it.

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If I was God and I said, if you do x, glunderhsirpdfms will happen as a resultant consequence. If you cannot even comprehend what in the fuck a glunderhsirpdfms is, it would be like telling a baby not to touch the burner on the stove.... Useless.... Futile..... Moot......

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Yahweh, in his infinite wisdom, surely would have known that. So the point that God told him would not reasonably exonerate God, nor should it reasonably condemn Adam or Eve.

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What part of story don't you understand?This is a story. Read it like any other story. Unless the narrator tells the audience that Adam doesn't understand what God said or one of the other characters in the story tells us that Adam doesn't understand, then the audience accepts that Adam understood what God said when he said if he ate, he would die.

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So are we looking at this from a literary perspective or are we assuming (as fundamentalist Christians do) that everything contained within the bible is literal and historical?

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It doesn't matter. There is a narrator in the story. The narrator already knows what happened since the story is in the past. As the story is written, Adam understood what God said.

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The point is that you and I would probably agree that from a literary perspective, there is a "moral of the story." We agree upon that, but the conclusion is faulty when juxtaposing that with the real world.

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So what does any of this have to do with whether sin is heritable?Like most, you're focusing on the consequences; which isn't the point of this discussion.While everyone has the capability to sin, IMO, not everyone has a sinful nature. IOW, they aren't prone to wickedness. Some people have no problem breaking the law and others have no inclination to break the law. Some people have to work harder at not breaking the law than others.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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I am using it as a man without the guilt of sin or under the penalty of sin.

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But it isn't part of the story. He still had the potential to sin.

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Then mankind would not have freewill to choose.

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They would still have the ability to make decisions. The Tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil (TKGE) just wouldn't have been a choice put before them. The TKGE didn't give them the ability to make choices. They could eat from any tree in the garden. They made choices daily on which tree to eat from on any specific day.If Adam hadn't eaten, there would only be two people for God to contend with.
If God hadn't put the TKGE in the middle of the garden, there would only be two people for God to contend with.As I said, same result.

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It tells us God wanted mankind to have a choice.

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I agree that by not destroying Noah and his family that God still wanted mankind to have the ability to choose between good and evil.

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Mankind can choose to believe God is a lie and does not exist and he will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

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Only if one chooses wickedness, IOW to sin.Sin is not inherited. The ability to choose sin is in all of us, although in reality I feel there are cases where people really don't have a choice. An anomaly in their genetic or physical makeup. Some of those anomalies can be inherited.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

We agree that sin is not heritable. It is a shame that Paul's writings mislead people into thinking that it is.I think Paul's logic is flawed. He says that because the first man sinned, all men sinned. Since sin is the cause of death, all men must die.Just as sin is not inherited it is not the cause of natural death either.Before God decided to keep them away from the Tree of Life he said to the man. Natural death is not a consequence of Adam's sin. They were already capable of dying naturally.Paul was a good salesman, but some of his preaching doesn't really hold water.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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Sin is not inherited. Sin exists.

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Sin is not the cause of natural death.

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But because the first man did disobey God sin entered into the universe. The penalty for that disobedience was death.

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Death entered into the universe. Therefore death exists.

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These laws are in place just as all the other laws put in place to control the universe.

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You're personifying. Humans are capable of disobedience. One can described what constitutes disobedience, but we can't point to disobedience until it happens. It is an act, not an entity. There is no disobedience until there is a rule or order made by someone to disobey.Eve may have committed the first act of disobedience, but the description of what constituted disobedience came as soon as God made the rule and stated the consequences. (Genesis 2:17) This was before the woman was created.A&E sinned, but sin did not enter the "universe" as you put it or mankind. Since we agree sin is not inherited and sin is not the cause of natural death, why would you say the consequence is death?The threat was instant death, the actual consequences were very different.Death didn't enter the "universe" from the outside. As soon as God created biological organisms, death was inevitable. It had nothing to do with A&E.Gods were considered immortal. As soon as God made mortals, natural death was inevitable.As far as Genesis 3:19, if you look at the return to the ground as punishment, then it was only for Adam. Eve was made of bone and that wasn't part of her punishment.They weren't punished with natural death. As biological organisms that was inevitable. They ultimately lost the opportunity to eat from the tree of life, which the story doesn't tell us they even knew about it. So they lost as option they probably didn't know they had.So we agree that sin is not inherited and that sin is not the cause of natural death.
We disagree on Paul's logic, although I understand the purpose of his presentation. That's another topic.Edited by purpledawn, : Typo

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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Paul was not the only bible writer to tell us that sin is inheritable....Paul was not misleading anyone. He was a student and teacher of the Mosaic law...he didnt come up with his own theology.

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Neither of the verses deals with the Mosaic Law. You picked a song and a parable, both written in poetic style. Neither is saying that sin is inherited. Mankind has the choice to obey or disobey rules put before them. Just because we have that choice doesn't mean we have to disobey.Don't confuse words written in humility or self-deprecation to be fact.Even Job's friend told him he was talking nonsense.Illness and genetic issues aside, in reality, sin is not a thing to be inherited.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion