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Author Topic:   'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 331 of 479 (563915)
06-07-2010 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by jaywill
06-07-2010 10:10 AM


Re: Moral generation vs Chronological generation
Can you please explain where you are trying to go with this?
Jay writes:
Roughly what year, give or take a few, represents the END of "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 ?
As Huntard already stated, its quite gray is being exact. But I have said from the youngest to the oldest which were alive during the lifetime of Jesus.
Now, again I'll ask for the 8th time, what are the signs for?
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 10:10 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 11:23 AM hERICtic has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 332 of 479 (563918)
06-07-2010 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by jaywill
06-07-2010 10:10 AM


Re: Moral generation vs Chronological generation
jaywill writes:
Roughly what year, give or take a few, represents the END of "this generation" in Matthew 24:34?
The year the last person alive when Jesus said that dies. So, let's say a baby was born at the exact moment Jesus was crucified (being a few days generous here, but that's rathger irrelevant, I'd say), and it lived a good full life for a person of that era, that would make that somewhere around 90 AD, I'd say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 10:10 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 333 of 479 (563920)
06-07-2010 10:39 AM


Moaral generation vs Chronological generation
hERICtic,
Your tag team partner says 90 AD is a good year to stand for the termination of "this generation" in Matthew 24:34.
What do you think about that?
"Signs" in the sense of Revelation are symbols.
"Signs" in the Gospel of John seem to be miracluous works with a deeper spiritual significance.
"Sign" in Matthew 24, at first glance, as in verse 30 is a visible event signifying something important.
"Signs" in verse 24 are unusual or miraclous feats performed by the false prophets or false christs.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Huntard, posted 06-07-2010 10:46 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 337 by Peepul, posted 06-07-2010 12:59 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 340 by hERICtic, posted 06-07-2010 1:09 PM jaywill has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 334 of 479 (563922)
06-07-2010 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 333 by jaywill
06-07-2010 10:39 AM


jaywill writes:
Your tag team partner says 90 AD is a good year to stand for the termination of "this generation" in Matthew 24:34.
Just to be claear, This date is the date which marks the end of the generation, as in, Jesus should've returned before then, and the world should've ended. Clearly, that is not the case.

This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 335 of 479 (563925)
06-07-2010 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by hERICtic
06-07-2010 10:14 AM


Re: Moral generation vs Chronological generation
As Huntard already stated, its quite gray is being exact. But I have said from the youngest to the oldest which were alive during the lifetime of Jesus.
I don't want it grey. I want to identify TWO or more consequtive chronological generations in the New Testament. I already supplied Matthew chapter one as speaking of 14 generations. Three times it does it.
Let's get the "grey" out of it and get it more definite.
Would you say that the prophet Zechariah or Jeremiah or Isaiah lived in a different generation PRIOR to "this generation" Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:34 ?
Look, I have to break it down into small pieces because you guys keep complaining when I write over 200 words. I think you glaze over and do not read my longer posts.
This question is for hERICtic.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by hERICtic, posted 06-07-2010 10:14 AM hERICtic has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 336 of 479 (563928)
06-07-2010 11:58 AM


Moral generation vs Chronological generation
PROOF of the concept of a Moral Generation in the mind of Jesus Christ distinct from a Chronological generation:
Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:34-36)
Abel and Zechariah, the son of Berechiah lived in chronologically DIFFERENT generations from the chronological generation of Jesus and His audience. However Jesus says to them:
"that upon YOU may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom YOU murdered between the temple and the altar."
The word "YOU" leveled at His audience. And they are charged with the murder of prophets who lived in prior chronological generations.
If "YOU" represents "this generation" in this sentence - "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION" that proves that Jesus could use the phrase "THIS GENERATION" to indicate a moral solidarity with people that goes over chronological boundaries.
The audience had not been born when Zechariah, the son of Berechiah was persecuted and slain. Yet Jesus charges them with the crime saying "YOU MURDERED" .... that is "YOU" or "this generation".
This is a generation that transcends chronological boundaries. It extends into the past before the "YOU" were born. And the guilt of crimes in previous chronological generations will be retributed upon "this generation" .
"This generation" therefore here in Matthew 23:36 as well as in Matt. 24:34 should be understood as the leaders of Israel, past, present, and future, who persecuted the prophets and rejected their Messiah.
It does not include all of the Jews for some of them became followers of Jesus rather then persecutors.
The leaders as the religious hierarchy and those persuaded by them who prosecuted the former prophets in the past and will persecute the prophets and apostles sent by Jesus in the future constitute "this generation" (Matt. 24:34)
The essence of Matthew's inclusion of this verse in his gospel is to prove that though Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, He would continue to be REJECTED by the national religious leaders even up until the time of His second coming.
This is in answer to the crucial question of his readers:
"IF JESUS is the Jewish Messiah, WHY did Israel not recognize Him as such?"
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Peepul, posted 06-07-2010 1:01 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 341 by hERICtic, posted 06-07-2010 1:48 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 342 by ramoss, posted 06-07-2010 2:34 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Peepul
Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009


Message 337 of 479 (563945)
06-07-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by jaywill
06-07-2010 10:39 AM


Re: Moaral generation vs Chronological generation
[quote]Your tag team partner says 90 AD is a good year to stand for the termination of "this generation" in Matthew 24:34.[quote] Jaywill, whatever date any one comes up with for the chronological generation concept, is it possible to defend the view that 1st Century folk and those of us alive today are part of the same moral generation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 10:39 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Peepul
Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009


Message 338 of 479 (563947)
06-07-2010 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by jaywill
06-07-2010 11:58 AM


Re: Moral generation vs Chronological generation
quote:
If "YOU" represents "this generation" in this sentence - "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION" that proves that Jesus could use the phrase "THIS GENERATION" to indicate a moral solidarity with people that goes over chronological boundaries.
Man, that is so feeble.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 11:58 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 1:07 PM Peepul has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 339 of 479 (563951)
06-07-2010 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Peepul
06-07-2010 1:01 PM


Re: Moral generation vs Chronological generation
Man, that is so feeble.
I don't see you refuting it, do I ?
The contemporary people in Jesus' audience constituting listeners were only the EPITOME of a moral group. They were not the entire moral generation.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 340 of 479 (563953)
06-07-2010 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by jaywill
06-07-2010 10:39 AM


Re: Moaral generation vs Chronological generation
Jay writes:
"Sign" in Matthew 24, at first glance, as in verse 30 is a visible event signifying something important.
I've asked you: What are the signs for in Matthew 24 eight times.
Eight times you've ignored the question.
You finally answer it.................and still have "not" answered it.
You're playing games.
For the ninth time, WHAT ARE THE SIGNS FOR?????
Im Matthew 24 there are (without going back to it) over a dozen "signs" that Jesus states. In detail.
For the tenth time, WHAT ARE THE SIGNS FOR????

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 10:39 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 4:29 PM hERICtic has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 341 of 479 (563964)
06-07-2010 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by jaywill
06-07-2010 11:58 AM


Re: Moral generation vs Chronological generation
Jay writes:
Abel and Zechariah, the son of Berechiah lived in chronologically DIFFERENT generations from the chronological generation of Jesus and His audience. However Jesus says to them:
"that upon YOU may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom YOU murdered between the temple and the altar."
The word "YOU" leveled at His audience. And they are charged with the murder of prophets who lived in prior chronological generations.
If "YOU" represents "this generation" in this sentence - "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION" that proves that Jesus could use the phrase "THIS GENERATION" to indicate a moral solidarity with people that goes over chronological boundaries.
The audience had not been born when Zechariah, the son of Berechiah was persecuted and slain. Yet Jesus charges them with the crime saying "YOU MURDERED" .... that is "YOU" or "this generation".
This is a generation that transcends chronological boundaries. It extends into the past before the "YOU" were born. And the guilt of crimes in previous chronological generations will be retributed upon "this generation" .
"This generation" therefore here in Matthew 23:36 as well as in Matt. 24:34 should be understood as the leaders of Israel, past, present, and future, who persecuted the prophets and rejected their Messiah.
Nope. First "son of Berechiah" is not in the early manuscripts. So which Zechariah is Jesus refering to? Zechariah is the father of John the Baptist, who is a high priest who obviously was in the temple. He is never heard of after Mary leaves three months pregnant. So it could refer to him.
Second, the OT does not say Zechariah is the son of Berechiah.
Third, go to Luke 11: 47"Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
Luke makes it quite clear, THIS GENERATION refers to those living. Jesus holds those of THIS GENERATION reponsible for what occured in the past. Even assuming the Zechariah is the one mentioned in the OT, its clear, "this generation" refers to those alive.
This backs up Matthew 23 perfectly. The story being conveyed it that "this generation" refers to those alive, being held responsible for past events.
Now, for the eleventh time....are you going to tell me what the signs are for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 11:58 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by jaywill, posted 06-08-2010 12:12 AM hERICtic has replied
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 342 of 479 (563973)
06-07-2010 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 336 by jaywill
06-07-2010 11:58 AM


Re: Moral generation vs Chronological generation
Well, that is hardly 'proof' at all. ... I dont' see who it addresses the concept of 'moral generation' at all.
As for Jesus being the 'Jewish Messiah', the Jewish faith did not recognize him because he did not do that things that were required. It is only after those things are accomplished will someone be acknowledged as the Jewish Messiah.
There is the little thing as making a new King over Israel, from the 'seed of david' (unbroken male line from David.. no women or adopted children need apply), the torah being the center of all religious worship in the world, a 1000 years of no wars anyplace, and things like that.

This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 343 of 479 (563986)
06-07-2010 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by hERICtic
06-07-2010 1:09 PM


Re: Moaral generation vs Chronological generation
I've asked you: What are the signs for in Matthew 24 eight times.
When I am ready to talk more about signs, I'll do it.
I am not evading some scary point you think you have. Right now I choose to concentrate on your reply from Luke 17.
Noted that "jumping around" is fine with you as long as it establishes your argument.
This is hypocritical of you. So stop complaining about my jumping around.
Be back latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by hERICtic, posted 06-07-2010 1:09 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by hERICtic, posted 06-07-2010 4:49 PM jaywill has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 344 of 479 (563988)
06-07-2010 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by jaywill
06-07-2010 4:29 PM


Re: Moaral generation vs Chronological generation
I've asked you: What are the signs for in Matthew 24 eight times.
Jay writes:
When I am ready to talk more about signs, I'll do it.
I am not evading some scary point you think you have. Right now I choose to concentrate on your reply from Luke 17.
Noted that "jumping around" is fine with you as long as it establishes your argument.
What you're doing is rude. We are in a debate. You asked questions, I answered them all. I asked questions, you ignore them. In fact, I asked my question before you even went off with yours. You didnt say after my first time I asked that you would get to it. You didnt after the second. The third. The fourth...and so on.
Eight posts I had to ask this question before you just stated you would eventually get to it. Thats rude.
And yes, its a scary question. Bc there is only one answer. The reason you havent gotten to it yet is bc you need time to find an elusive response.
Whats sad, is that you could have answered it with three words or less.
So yes, apparently its quite scary that you cannot take two seconds to come up with a response.
As for jumping around, I am doing no such thing. You brought up Matthew 23.
I addressed this issue in detail in my previous post. I also used Luke 11 which parellels Matthew 23. Its the same topic, with Jesus doing the talking.
Jay writes:
This is hypocritical of you. So stop complaining about my jumping around.
Are you being dishonest here or are you truly delusional in your line of thinking? Where the heck have I jumped around? I answered your question regarding Matthew 23 in my previous post.
I addresed the Zechariah issue. I also pointed out in the earliest manuscripts its not even there the "son of". I also used Luke which parellels the story! Its the SAME story!
On top of that, you have no evidence to support your assertion.
34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
Obviously the "you" refers to those alive. Therefore, Jesus is talking not of those in the past, but in his present. Verse 35, the "you" refers back to verse 34, which then shows its still the same people. The only part you can hope to cling on is "whom you murdered..." which you have no evidence for that its refering back to the OT. Regardless, even if Jesus states that the forefathers of the Pharisees killed Zechariah from the OT, its still would not mean "this generation" refers to those in the past. Hes already established hes talking to those in his present.
Once again though, I must point out that you are doing what you always do. Taking one verse out of context.
If you start reading from verse 1 of chapter 23, its states whom Jesus is refering to: The Pharisees.
Jesus then proceeds to "rip apart" the Pharisees. Those in his present day.
"This generation" refers to those in that time line.
The evidence backs my assertion. You have no evidence that Jesus means "nearly every generation" in the past, when he states "this generation".
Stop procrastinating.
I asked what the signs are for. Its a simple question. Once you know the answer to that, "this generation" is crystal clear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 4:29 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by jaywill, posted 06-07-2010 5:43 PM hERICtic has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 345 of 479 (563996)
06-07-2010 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by hERICtic
06-07-2010 4:49 PM


Re: Moaral generation vs Chronological generation
I addresed the Zechariah issue. I also pointed out in the earliest manuscripts its not even there the "son of". I also used Luke which parellels the story! Its the SAME story!
On top of that, you have no evidence to support your assertion.
Speaking so soon ? I am working on a reply that takes me time.
First we will deal with the Zechariah problem. Then we will deal with the different styles of writing between MAtthew and Luke.
As if Christians have never heard these objections before.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by hERICtic, posted 06-07-2010 4:49 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by hERICtic, posted 06-07-2010 7:36 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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