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Author Topic:   Why is sin heritable?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 19 of 139 (563778)
06-06-2010 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Larni
06-06-2010 10:35 AM


Larni writes:
However, I'm taking the position that it is all true and asking about Yahweh's motivation to make sin heritable.
if Jehovah was happy about our sinful condition, he would not have provided us with a way out.
The fact is that Adams sin put him out of harmony with his Creator. It damaged his relationship with God with himself and with his wife. It affected his mind, heart, and body. Its due to those ill effects that we also had sin passed onto us. Its the law of hereditary that determined what we inherit from our parents, we dont only get their physical traits but also their personality traits and diseases. We know the law of hereditary is a fact, we can see it.
The personality traits that we inherited from Adam are things like rebelliousness, independence, unrighteousness, guilt, anxiety, insecurity, shame....these traits came from his willful act of disobedience which put him out of harmony with God and caused all these sorts of traits to affect his mind and heart. And physically we inherited his short life span.
Its these traits that alienate us from God. When we display such traits, we are not reflecting Gods glory or his image. We were created to reflect his image and glory which means our minds and hearts should be representative of Gods mind and heart....but while we have such traits, its impossible for us to represent Gods image. And while we die its impossible for us to reflect his eternality.
This is what makes us sinners. And to sin means to 'miss' It means that we have fallen from the mark of Gods perfection. His personality and his traits are impossible for us to fully reflect in this state because the traits that we have inherited as part of our nature make it impossible for us to reflect the traits of God to his perfect standard.
This is why God is not happy with our sinful condition and why he provided one who could remove sin and death from us. Our purpose on this earth is to reflect Gods perfection...until we are perfect like him we are sinners.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Larni, posted 06-06-2010 10:35 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Larni, posted 06-07-2010 8:05 AM Peg has replied
 Message 46 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-07-2010 8:17 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 21 of 139 (563792)
06-06-2010 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Pauline
06-06-2010 8:34 PM


Re: Sin and death
Dr.Sing writes:
But I think Larni's question is, why was it a repeating pattern i.e why did God allow it to become a repeating pattern and not just curb it (after all,He hates it)? There has to be a reason why it is a recurring pattern i.e what theologians commonly refer to as original sin.
its the law of hereditary.
Adam could no longer pass perfection of mind body and heart to his children. He could not pass on Gods perfect image (the image that he was created to reflect) because he stopped reflecting those perfect qualities when he willfully disobeyed....the consequences of which affected him physically and mentally. He could only pass on the traits and qualities that he now possesed.
The law of hereditary states that both physical and mental traits will be passed onto the offspring and this is why we recieved his imperfection...or his sin.
An imperfect man cannot bring forth a perfect man.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Pauline, posted 06-06-2010 8:34 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Pauline, posted 06-06-2010 9:18 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 25 of 139 (563819)
06-06-2010 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Pauline
06-06-2010 9:18 PM


Re: whats inheritable and whats not...where do you draw the line?
Dr.Sing writes:
So perfection of mind body and, heart is how you're defining God's image. But I say its more than that. Anyway, the main point is, the inheritable traits and qualities that the sinful Adam possessed do not include his soul, do they? I've never come across a Bible verse that says souls are inheritable
thats probably because the bible does not say that mankind has 'a' soul. It tells us that we ARE souls. A living person is a soul.
Adam became a living soul
All the animals that were brought forth became living souls
The hebrew word defined as 'soul' is Nephesh and it means the physical living person or creature. So we did infact inherit Adams 'soul'....his living body was his soul and therefore the traits of that living body were passed onto us the same way we pass our physical traits onto our children.
Dr.Sing writes:
But, where does perfection lie? In the soul, yes? And we know souls are not inheritable, yes? So where did human perfection get lost or what did God do with it?
perfection lies in Gods perfect standards. His righteousness, love, justice are all perfect standards that we fail to reach.
Human perfection became lost when Adam failed to live up to those standards. Perfect righteousness would have prevented Adam from disobeying God, Perfect love would have kept Adam loyal to God and perfect justice would have caused Adam to reject his wifes offer to eat the fruit.
The consequences of not living up to those perfect standards caused Adam to have great internal conflict which became like a scar on his mind, heart and spirit. It caused him pain and grief, it made him feel shame, anxiety, fear and guilt...these were feelings that he had never known before but now they were a part of his physical and mental health.
Dr.Sing writes:
We never received his sin. We received his sin nature..and we're trying to figure out why we did.
because traits are passed on from parents to children. Genes dictate, not only hair, skin and eye color but also mental ability,inclination and personality.
Because we inherited some of his personality and mental traits, we think the same way as him....this is why we also fall short of Gods image and glory. We do not hold to Gods righteousness or love or justice....we reflect the image of Adam which puts us at odds with God.
hence why we too are sinners because to sin means to 'miss the mark' that God sets for perfection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Pauline, posted 06-06-2010 9:18 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-07-2010 4:41 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 55 by Pauline, posted 06-07-2010 9:57 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 78 of 139 (564029)
06-07-2010 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Larni
06-07-2010 8:05 AM


Larni writes:
Peg, I'm really sorry to sound like a broken record but the point is that YHWH could remove our sin without having to create Jesus with the express intention of killing him.
None of that was necessary. YHWH did not need to make sin heritable.
Was there anything limiting YHWH's ability to remove sin with a wave of his hand?
I appreciate what you are saying there, and you are right...God could have bypassed his own laws to rectify the situation immediately
However, if he did do this then he would be showing himself to be violating his own laws and that is a trait of hypocrisy... an imperfect trait. All of Gods traits are perfect and he always acts in perfect harmony with the standards he sets...not only does he expect us to live by his standards, but he himself lives by his standards.
He had to allow justice to run its course, he had to allow Adam and Eve to die, he had to allow them to bring forth children becaues that was their mandate and he had to allow the full consequences of Adams sin and Satans rebellion run its course in order to completely settle the issues that it raised.
Was he happy about it, no of course not. could he have killed Satan, Adam and Eve and start again, yes of course he could have. But that would have left the question mark as to whether Satan was right or not. Gods heavenly family of Angels, including his firstborn son Jesus Christ, were all eyewitnesses to the events in Eden. They knew of the challenge made by Satan and they deserved the right to know if Satan was telling the truth about God or not.
Gods perfect sense of Justice required that Satans challenge be permitted to trial basically. This is why he did not kill them back then and start again. God trusted his human creation and he knew that mankind could remain loyal and obedient to him so he allowed Adam and Eve to bring forth their children and he provided those children with a way out of their fallen condition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Larni, posted 06-07-2010 8:05 AM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-15-2010 11:13 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 80 of 139 (564038)
06-07-2010 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Pauline
06-07-2010 9:57 AM


Re: whats inheritable and whats not...where do you draw the line?
Dr.Sing writes:
Animals are also souls like us then?
Yes they are. A soul is a living creature according to the OT. Look up the original hebrew word ne′phesh....it literally means a 'breather'
that is, a breathing creature. When God blew breath into the man, he became a living soul....a nephesh. The animals were also called by the same word 'nephesh'
Dr.Sing writes:
People don't inherit souls. Like Dr A said, this is spiritual Lamarckism...weird.
its only weird because the church's changed the meaning of the original word nephesh (pshyche in greek) to mean a magical part of the person that lives eternally...something they borrowed from greek philosophy to make christianity more pleasing to the natives.
Dr.Sing writes:
So you're arguing for Adam's imperfection before the fall? Hence your use of the word prevented/kept/reject this many times...
perfection meant that he had not bad traits...so no, what i'm saying is that before he sinned he was perfect. He made the choice to go contrary to what he knew to be right....he had free will therefore he could choose to go either way. As soon as he chose to go against God, he became a sinner meaning one who falls below Gods standards and it was because of this that his personality was forever changed.
Dr.Sing writes:
No one denies that. However, sin is not carried on genes, is it?
sin isnt a 'thing' its completely intangible so its not going to show up on our genes. But it affects the way we think and reason and act. The way a culture thinks & reasons is most certainly passed on from generation to generation. It is possible to change our mentality so that we think differently to how we've been brought up but that takes a lot of effort.
The only tangible part of sin is the cause of death...I beleive they are pretty close to finding it, they've already discovered what causes a cell to die after a certain length of time so perhaps they've already found it. (im talking about the telomeres at the end of the chromosomes)
Dr.Sing writes:
Ok--how does/did Adam think? If I think a certain way, is it 100% probable that my daughter will think the same exact way I do? Abel is a good case in point here...he certainly "thought differently" from Adam, yes? Enoch? Noah? Righteous people born of a unrighteous man these are...
There has got to be more than "we think like Adam because we're his children" to the answer.
one simple example of how we are all affected by the way Adam began to think is that of wearing clothing. With a few exceptions, the human race are ashamed of their nakedness. This was passed onto us from Adam.
There is also the difficult relationship that developed between Adam and his wife. His perception of her changed after he sinned, he no longer viewed her in the same way he did originally which was as his equal, his companion/parnter... This is why God warned her that her husband would now dominate her and thats what the history of mankind has been. Women are still very much dominated by men in many societies. Its inborn and we can even see it in young children and a boys treatment of his mother....he doesnt listen to his mother in the same way he does with his father.
The results to the woman was that she began to crave for her husband perhaps because she felt the change in their relationship. He had pulled away from her emotionally and she 'may' have used sex to try and entice him back to her....we see that sex is used by females in order to get or keep a man. Even young girls think that sex is what makes a man fall in love with you. We know that this isnt how a man falls in love with a woman, but why on earth does that belief continue to exist in our modern world??? Just look at music videos and we see women using sex to entice and lure men.
Another example is the way young children rebel against their parents. Sometimes kids will deliberately disobey and this is because even at a young age independence is showing itself. Adam was originally reliant on God but his actions made him independent...we are born with this trait of wanting independence, thinking that we know best and everyone else is wrong.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Pauline, posted 06-07-2010 9:57 AM Pauline has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 85 of 139 (564055)
06-07-2010 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phage0070
06-07-2010 10:36 PM


Re: How's my apologetics?
Phage0070 writes:
I don't care about if they have the metaphysical sins or not, I am concerned with the punishment. The OP also specifically points out the issue is with later generations being held responsible for the sin
the bible doesnt agree that the children of Adam and Eve were held responsible for Adams sin.
The bible speaks of mankind as being 'subjected' to it rather then 'responsible' for it.
Romans 8:18-22 "...For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him (Adam) that subjected it,
on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.
We know this is speaking about Adam as the one who subjected all mankind to 'futility' or sin because if it was God, then why is God the one who is providing the basis of hope that it will be removed?
If God subjected us to sin, then it would make no sense that he provides a means to be free of sin as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phage0070, posted 06-07-2010 10:36 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Phage0070, posted 06-08-2010 12:09 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 88 of 139 (564062)
06-08-2010 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phage0070
06-08-2010 12:09 AM


Re: How's my apologetics?
Phage0070 writes:
If God subjected us to death it would make no sense that he provides us a means to be free of death as well.
Or maybe Peg needs to (wince) read his/her bible more.
you are simply meshing up scriptures to suit your theory
The first one is talking about Adam, the second one is talking about Adams children
The first man was condemned to death for his disobedience, the rest of us are offered salvation which proves that God does not hold us accountable for Adams sin.
Adam was given no such offer of salvation, we were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phage0070, posted 06-08-2010 12:09 AM Phage0070 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Larni, posted 06-11-2010 4:47 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 102 of 139 (564218)
06-09-2010 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by purpledawn
06-08-2010 6:24 PM


Re: Paul and Sin
purpledawn writes:
We agree that sin is not heritable. It is a shame that Paul's writings mislead people into thinking that it is.
I think Paul's logic is flawed. He says that because the first man sinned, all men sinned. Since sin is the cause of death, all men must die.
Just as sin is not inherited it is not the cause of natural death either.
Paul was not the only bible writer to tell us that sin is inheritable....Paul was not misleading anyone. He was a student and teacher of the Mosaic law...he didnt come up with his own theology.
Psalm 51:5 "Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains,
And in sin my mother conceived me"
Job 14:4"Who can produce someone clean out of someone unclean?
There is not one."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by purpledawn, posted 06-08-2010 6:24 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by purpledawn, posted 06-09-2010 10:13 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 135 of 139 (565462)
06-17-2010 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Hyroglyphx
06-15-2010 11:13 AM


Hyroglyphx writes:
In other words, let's say that genocide is wrong. Suppose God kills a whole bunch of people. Is he wrong? No, but only by the virtue that you claim he's perfect. Indeed you will find ways that he's righteous even in the face of transparent hypocrisy.
we are not in the position that God is in. His position as the ultimate authority gives him the legal right to put a person to death if he deems it necessary....its not hypocrisy on his part to do so...its his responsibility.
Hyroglyphx writes:
When did Satan fall, and why?
we dont know exactly when he fell, but we do know that it was before he interferred with the tree of knowledge. Ezekiel 38:`12-15 speaks prophetically of Satan in this way:
"12Son of man, lift up a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and you must say to him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said:
‘You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o‧lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you"
it would appear that Satan developed 'unrighteousness' It was a gradual process with him just as it can be a gradual process with us.
James 1:14But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death
Hyroglyphx writes:
But no human has ever been fully obedient to God. That's the whole reason for Jesus, remember?
thats not quite right. There were many examples of people who did in fact choose to remain faithful to God.... people such as Abel, Noah, Abraham, King David and the list goes on.
I think what you mean to say is that no one of mankind were ever able to remain 'perfectly obedient' and that is quite true. But that is due to inborn imperfection and thats why God uses his mercy to forgive us of our mistakes.
Jesus was sent as the means by which we can have our imperfection removed completely in order that we can become perfect.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-15-2010 11:13 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by AdminPD, posted 06-17-2010 7:25 AM Peg has not replied

  
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