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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Polytheistic?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 106 of 375 (564457)
06-10-2010 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Straggler
06-10-2010 9:57 AM


Re: Equivocations and Contradictions
So what are the recognisable criteria for objectively identifying god concepts regardless of language or culture?
Well surely being an object of worship is part of it.
And this, I think, rules Satan out as a god of the Christians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 9:57 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 4:55 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3736 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 107 of 375 (564458)
06-10-2010 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Straggler
06-10-2010 4:36 PM


Re: The real equivocation
Straggler writes:
Which is of course a way of you avoiding the question and yet another way for you to avoid the fact that by any objective definition of the concept of Satan does indeed qualify as a god.
Your comrades have told you that you're wrong in your line of reasoning. Your opponents have told you the same. The only one that's left to tell you you're wrong is...you.
So what are the recognisable criteria for objectively identifying god concepts regardless of language, culture or religious specifics?
After listening to my answer, do ask people of other regions as well. IOW, my answer is NOT a objective, universal set of criteria. Since you've taken up a next to impossible task ( i.e objectively, universally defining god), it is in your best interest to speak to people of differnet religions and come up with a speculative, partially correct set of criteria.
Here goes:
Supernatural
Benevolent
Powerful (or miracle-working...that works too)
Note: This isn't the set of criteria for defining God according to Christianity. You asked for some recognizable criteria likely to be present regardless of culture, language or religious specifics.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : formatting
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 4:36 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 5:03 PM Pauline has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 108 of 375 (564459)
06-10-2010 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Dr Adequate
06-10-2010 4:52 PM


Re: Equivocations and Contradictions
Dr A writes:
And this, I think, rules Satan out as a god of the Christians.
Oh FFS.
Of course Christians are going to rebrand the term god to uphold their own self proclaimed assertions of monotheism. But to anyone not applying the specific Christian definition, including Christians when they are discussing theism more objectively, biblical Christianity is polytheistic. Not monotheistic.
Well surely being an object of worship is part of it.
Satan is worshipped.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 4:52 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 109 of 375 (564460)
06-10-2010 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Straggler
06-10-2010 4:48 PM


Re: Thanks
So Satan is excluded from the general concept of god because the specific Christian concept of god won't allow it.
Well yes.
Satan is a figure in Christian mythology, which does not recognize him as a god.
Just as Prometheus is a figure in Greek mythology, which did not recognize him as a god; so he isn't a god, he's a Titan, because the Greeks said so.
The people who make the myths get the last word on this. You might as well ask whether Sherlock Holmes was really a detective. Well, since he exists only within a fictional canon in which he is a detective, then the answer is "yes". Sir Arthur Conan Doyle could not have been wrong about that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 4:48 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 5:10 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 110 of 375 (564461)
06-10-2010 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Pauline
06-10-2010 4:53 PM


Re: The real equivocation
=Dr SingYour comrades have told you that you're wrong in your line of reasoning. Your opponents have told you the same. The only one that's left to tell you you're wrong is...you.
Just the way I like it. Utterly correct but with it all to prove.
Straggler writes:
So what are the recognisable criteria for objectively identifying god concepts regardless of language, culture or religious specifics?
Dr Sing writes:
Supernatural
Benevolent
Powerful (or miracle-working...that works too)
Can you tell me which of the Greek gods, Norse gods, Roman gods, Hindu gods or indeed gods from any other forms of polytheism adhere to those criteria.?
"Benevolent" in particular seems to be your own personal attempt to subjectively exclude Satan whilst including your own god. But it excludes many many other gods that other cultures have and do believe to be gods.
For example is Kali benevolent? Zeus? Aphrodite? Hades? Odin?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 4:53 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 10:34 PM Straggler has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 111 of 375 (564462)
06-10-2010 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Straggler
06-10-2010 4:43 PM


Re: Creation "gods"
I had anticipated that one. I ask you how many greek "gods" were involved in creation?
It depends on the myth. In the one you mentioned, Nyx created Eros,Gaia and Uranus who created Zeus who (with a little help) created non-animal life and stars. He also created Prometheus and Epimetheus who together created mankind
I count at least 7.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 4:43 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 5:15 PM Modulous has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 112 of 375 (564463)
06-10-2010 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Dr Adequate
06-10-2010 5:02 PM


Re: Thanks
The people who make the myths get the last word on this.
Bollocks.
If you were writing a book about theism and belief in gods (more fool you) how would you recognise such concepts in different cultures? By them telling you?
Bear in mind that most such cultures won't use the term "god" at all. In fact anthropologically studied primitive cultures in many cases have no actual word for the supernatural so intertwined with observed phenomenon are their theistic beliefs. Yet we still manage to recognise their belief in that which we call "gods" all the same. How do you think this occurs? Or are you denying that such concepts can be recognised unless actually specified by those who believe in them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 5:02 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 5:43 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 113 of 375 (564465)
06-10-2010 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Modulous
06-10-2010 5:06 PM


Re: Creation "gods"
Has Satan never created anything at all? Hell? Demons?
If not you may well have found a get out clause for Christians even if it requires them to deny that most of the gods of history and Hinduism are gods even in non-Christian terms. Which would of course contradict most of what Dr Sing and Slevesque have said in this thread about recognisng different forms of theism as believing in god concepts.
In fact it would probably deny godhood to the vast majority of well established god concepts past and present.
AbE - This creation definition also allows for the possibility of man being called god if we create "life from non-life". For example.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Modulous, posted 06-10-2010 5:06 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Modulous, posted 06-10-2010 5:39 PM Straggler has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 114 of 375 (564470)
06-10-2010 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Straggler
06-10-2010 5:15 PM


Re: Creation "gods"
Has Satan never created anything at all? Hell? Demons?
Other than abstract things, such as 'lies', no. Satan doesn't create hell, hell is a prison that Satan will be cast into during the judgement along with various other ne'er-do-wells.
I don't think it ever says who created hell, but if you ask Christians they are likely to say 'God'.
Again, the creation of demons is not explicit in the bible - but one assumes they are Yahweh's work.
Which would of course contradict most of what Dr Sing and Slevesque have said in this thread about recognisng different forms of theism as believing in god concepts.
Indeed - they have been arguing from a sort of 'definitional relativism'.
In fact it would probably deny godhood to the vast majority of well established god concepts past and present.
No doubt - a consistent Ibrahimist may argue that pagans get a little over excited and call 'djinn', 'demons', and 'cherubim' gods erroneously. But what else do you expect from idolatrous infidel pagans but confusion?
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : lies aren't metaphorical

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 5:15 PM Straggler has replied

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 Message 122 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 8:37 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 115 of 375 (564471)
06-10-2010 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Straggler
06-10-2010 5:10 PM


Re: Thanks
If you were writing a book about theism and belief in gods (more fool you) how would you recognise such concepts in different cultures? By them telling you?
I suppose one would have to. If you were writing a similar book, would you call Angra Mainyu a god of the Zoroastrians? Or Prometheus a god of the Greeks? Would you call Ymir a Norse god, even though the Prose Edda explicitly states:
By no means do we acknowledge him [i.e. Ymir] God; he was evil and all his kindred: we call them Rime-Giants.
Bear in mind that most such cultures won't use the term "god" at all. In fact anthropologically studied primitive cultures in many cases have no actual word for the supernatural so intertwined with observed phenomenon are their theistic beliefs. Yet we still manage to recognise their belief in that which we call "gods" all the same.
Some specific examples would be nice, otherwise I hardly know how to begin to discuss this.
Or are you denying that such concepts can be recognised unless actually specified by those who believe in them?
I don't see how people can be said to believe in gods as such unless they have some sort of concept of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 5:10 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 8:31 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 116 of 375 (564489)
06-10-2010 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Straggler
06-08-2010 7:03 AM


Re: Godly Criteria
Hi, Straggler.
Straggler writes:
Thunderbolts at dawn for anyone who doubts me.
You must be a true god, then: I doubted you, and we got a dawnish thunderstorm here in Kentucky.
Admittedly, it was kind of a puny, weaksauce thunderstorm, but it did have some thunderbolts in it.
Besides, I didn't say I thought you were a particularly powerful god, so it still fits.
All hail, Straggler, the Part-mighty!
Edited by Bluejay, : No reason given.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Straggler, posted 06-08-2010 7:03 AM Straggler has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 117 of 375 (564504)
06-10-2010 7:04 PM


Prometheus
Modulous has pointed out to me that Aeschylus' Prometheus Bound refers to Prometheus as a god. So I withdraw him as an example.

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 118 of 375 (564523)
06-10-2010 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Modulous
06-10-2010 2:41 PM


Polytheistic Roots of Christianity
Mod writes:
Just a few random notes, really, something to kick start the ideas - looking for Greek concepts that weren't in the OT that are in the NT...
As said earlier I have been reading The Evolution of God by Robert Wright. The following comments are all from that single source (which is broadly sympathetic to theism but difficult reading for those with a belief in organised religion) and if challenged will require further investigation. Having said that here are some observations on the polytheistic origins of Christianity from that source which suggest that Yahweh evolved from being a powerful but not supreme god amongst a Caananite polytheistic pantheon to that which we know today.
The concept of god in the bible itself evolves from an anthropomorphic entity who actively controls aspects of nature (in a very pagan god style fashion) to a the far more scientifically disprovable concept of a transcendental and ethereal being hovering over us all.
In the poems that most scholars consider to be the oldest parts of the bible Yahweh is not a creator. He is a destroyer. A warrior god amongst many other gods. The ancient hymn to Yahweh "man of war" asks "Who is like thee, O lord among the gods?"
In psalms 82 "God has taken his place in the divine council. In the midst of the gods he holds judgement". And Yahweh himself acknowledges these other gods when addressing the council a few verses later when he says "You are gods".
The Caananites had a number of gods. Chief amongst them was El. El as CEO of the Caananite pantheon precedes Yahweh and the Christian monotheistic god in the historical record. Yet in the Hebrew version of psalms 82 the divine council is written literally as "the council of El". In fact throughout the Hebrew texts El is used to refer to God and the very name Israel meets the standard of the day whereby a gods name was included as the end part of of a placename. Even the much used phrase "children of Israel" is by many considered better translated as "sons of El".
Further evidence of the merger between El and Yahweh concepts is given by the sixth chapter of Exodus in which God says: "I am Yahweh. I appearsed to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai. By my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to them"
But the merging of creator god El with war god Yahweh is not the end of the biblical story. The bible refers many times to Yahweh in ways that indicate that he has adopted much of the mythology of his arch (in biblical terms) false enemy deity Baal. About Yahweh the bible says:
"You broke the heads of dragons in the waters. You crushed the heads of leviathon". Yahweh will "swallow death forever". Yahweh has "wrath against the rivers" and "rage against the sea" as well as having "trampled the sea with your horses" and the "light of your arrows" whilst also referring to "the gleam of your flashing spear".
All of which can be directly attributed to the mythologically epic battles Baal had with dragons and those gods of the sea, death and other such pagan-like godly entities of the Caanannite pantheon . In addition the bible refers to God as one "who rides upon the clouds" whilst the Caananite name nickname for Baal is "rider of the clouds" and in the biblical god-off that Elijah arranges Yahweh performs some very Baal like tricks to once and for all show himself as the one true god.
Does this prove anything? Probably not. But it should give even the most monotheistically devout something to ponder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Modulous, posted 06-10-2010 2:41 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Modulous, posted 06-11-2010 3:28 AM Straggler has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 119 of 375 (564525)
06-10-2010 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Pauline
06-10-2010 4:28 PM


Re: Equivocations and Contradictions
And for the zillionth time, satan is excluded because Christianity is a monotheistic religion which defines God as one person or one person as God--YHWH.
Right.
Except that it doesn't. It also recognizes Jesus and the holy spirit as god as well.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 4:28 PM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 9:22 PM subbie has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 120 of 375 (564527)
06-10-2010 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Dr Adequate
06-10-2010 5:43 PM


Re: Thanks
dr A writes:
Some specific examples would be nice, otherwise I hardly know how to begin to discuss this
The Semang Hunter Gathers as discussed in the book I am currently reading The Evolution of God by Robert Wright are an example of a culture that fuses the concept of the supernatural with the observed without any form of verbal differentiation.
I don't see how people can be said to believe in gods as such unless they have some sort of concept of them.
Can we not all broadly recognise such concepts based on common criteria or characteristics? Given differences in language and culture how else can such concepts be recognised. A member of the semang hunter gatherers is unlikley to walk up and say to you "I believe in gods. Please write about me" is he? But does this mean there is no form of belief he can hold that we recognise as theistic?
The point is not can they identify their concepts as godly. But can Christians who advocate the idea that Slevesque (amongst others) has put forward (namely that "every culture around the world have the concept of God/Gods") identify such concepts?
If they cannot identify such concepts - Then they are talking nonsense when they make these claims.
If they can identify such concepts - Then they need to say what criteria or characteristics are common to such concepts and explain why Satan is not included as such a concept.
If you were writing a similar book, would you call Angra Mainyu a god of the Zoroastrians? Or Prometheus a god of the Greeks? Would you call Ymir a Norse god, even though the Prose Edda explicitly states:
If you consider the term god without recourse to any particular religion what do you think of? How do translators recognise concepts such that they get translated to the word "god" from other languages? When we debate whether or not belief in god is innate in new born babies what concept of "god" are we talking about?
Yes - Each religion will impose it's own qualifications and subtleties. But so what? Satan is a god in every way that is used to define gods in every objective use of the term.
The only reason we are even debating this is bacuse Christians don't like that conclusion. That is my point.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 5:43 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 11:54 PM Straggler has replied

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