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Author Topic:   'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 361 of 479 (564374)
06-10-2010 7:23 AM


The question of what signs are for was answered by me in message 333 about 26 posts ago by now when I wrote:
"Signs" in the sense of Revelation are symbols.
"Signs" in the Gospel of John seem to be miraculous works with a deeper spiritual significance.
"Sign" in Matthew 24, at first glance, as in verse 30 is a visible event signifying something important.
"Signs" in verse 24 are unusual or miraculous feats performed by the false prophets or false christs.
Please look again at the last two sentences.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Huntard, posted 06-10-2010 7:41 AM jaywill has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 362 of 479 (564380)
06-10-2010 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by jaywill
06-10-2010 7:23 AM


The point here is the word for
jaywill writes:
Please look again at the last two sentences.
That what the signs ARE, not what they are FOR.
Care to try again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by jaywill, posted 06-10-2010 7:23 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by jaywill, posted 06-10-2010 11:32 AM Huntard has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 363 of 479 (564381)
06-10-2010 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by hERICtic
06-10-2010 6:45 AM


Re: Moral generation vs Chronological generation
I'll say it again.
The tactic of displaying exasperation at repeating yourself is getting old.
You should be able to refute me without this show.
Notice how I have to repeat everything? Also notice, how you once again do not understand context. In fact, I think I have accused you this nearly every post (you butchred Matthew 23 which I will get to once you address what the signs are for) and backed it up everytime with evidence.
As far as I can see your argument is beginning to boil down to exasperation at repeated requests.
I am looking for some other substantive contributions now.
1) It does not matter if 2 Peter is a forgery or not. If its the same author, then you still have the same problem. 1 Peter thinks the end time are upon him.
Okay. But you are not contemplating anything else in his writing.
How SOON is your last day of life ?
This Bible is a book of LIFE. You cannot say that Peter's expectation makes the delayed second coming of Jesus wrong.
At best you can say He didn't return as SOON as Peter wanted or expected.
Please answer me - How SOON is your last day of life coming ?
2) The scripture you use, I gave you two Christian sites which explain in detail that it does not mean what you think it does.
It is not saying a day IS a thousand years, its says a day is LIKE a thouands years. Peter is saying trust god, remain faithful, he will return.
I did not read your websites.
And I do not see any difference. To God one day is LIKE a thousand years. And that is all I have said.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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 Message 359 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 6:45 AM hERICtic has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 364 of 479 (564386)
06-10-2010 7:55 AM


It is not saying a day IS a thousand years, its says a day is LIKE a thouands years. Peter is saying trust god, remain faithful, he will return.
I think he's got it.
Right, to God one day and a thousand years are like each other. So if God's PEOPLE more and more get to thinking like God thinks, they TOO ... will realize that a thousand years is like one day ... TO GOD.
But His coming is STILL soon. Because He is King of kings and Lord of Lords. And because we have to give an account to Him of every careless word we uttered let alone our actions as Christians.
Because we have to stand before His blazing gaze from which NOTHING is hidden. And because we have to be examined by the One who lives in us.
You bet your bottom dollar its coming SOON!
Doesn't it depend a lot on your attitude towards the One who is coming ?

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 365 of 479 (564400)
06-10-2010 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by hERICtic
06-10-2010 6:45 AM


"End times" vs "Day of the Lord"
hERICtic writes:
I did respond. I stated it has nothing to do with me. I said BIBLICAL SCHOLARS have called it a forgery. Second, I even added even if its not a forgery it backs up 1 Peter quite nicely in the respect that they both claim the end times are near.
As the Spirit of the Lord inspired the writers of the New Covenant to write the NT, a distinction was made between "the end times" and "the day of the Lord."
We've been in "the end times" since Acts 2 when our Lord ascended to sit at the right hand of the God the Father.
The "Day of the Lord" (2 Thess 2:2) will come when the Church on earth completes the work He has called us to do according to Matt 24:14.
We can split hairs until our Lord Jesus returns concerning what the Bible recipes say. The ultimate question is whether or not one has eaten the recipes, receiving the eternal life God gives thru our Lord.
Blessings
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 6:45 AM hERICtic has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 366 of 479 (564417)
06-10-2010 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by Huntard
06-10-2010 7:41 AM


Re: The point here is the word for
That what the signs ARE, not what they are FOR.
Care to try again?
The signs are like indications pointing to His coming. Is that what you want ?
They are like signals saying "You're on the right track. Don't worry."
When you take off in an airplane there are signs along the runway. No doubt the pilots understand what each one of them mean.
When it is coasting out to the runway there are signs all along the ground. This doesn't mean the pilot is to full thrust the engine as soon as the first two or three signs are seen.
I'll tell you one of the tale tell SIGNS which will accompany Christ's return. That is a lot of skeptics saying that He's not returning.
"Knowing this first, that in the last of days mockers will come with mocking, going on according to their own lusts and saying, Where is the promise of His coming ? "( 2 Pet. 3:3,4a)
We fully anticipate that the number of intellectuals jeering and mocking saying "Where is this Second Coming of Jesus Christ anyway ? You're deluded. You're in error."
Jesus knew this. And Jesus also said "... when the Son of Man comes will He find faith on the earth ?" (Luke 18:8)
For every passage you show me that the Second Coming is close I can show you another two passages arming and equiping the believers for endurance, long suffering, steadfastness, and perserverance indicating that they are in the race for the long run.
I take BOTH kinds of utterances seriously as a Christian.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Huntard, posted 06-10-2010 7:41 AM Huntard has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 367 of 479 (564419)
06-10-2010 11:48 AM


Who wants to examine with me some passages emphasizing the OTHER side of the Second Coming of Christ?
That is that it is not so near and that the saints should arm themselves for the long haul of faith.
Do you think that God Almighty accompishes nothing within His people in the intervening years before Christ's second coming ?
Don't you know that God is growing a crop of divine life within people on the earth ?
Sure He is. That is why in Revelation 14 the "SIGN" (1:1) of the reaping of a Harvest is equated with the second coming. Christ is like a farmer patiently cultivating His crop of God-men and God-women on the earth:
"And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Rev. 14:14-16)
This is a sign of the second coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of Heaven to rapture to Himself His "crop" of believers on the earth. It corresponds to the teaching of 1 Thess. 4:17.
You see ? Jesus is like a patient farmer growing His crop. Finally the hour to REAP the HARVEST will come. He does not want to reap the crop prematurely. He is waiting for the maturity of the growth to RIPEN the crop.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 368 of 479 (564427)
06-10-2010 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by hERICtic
06-10-2010 6:31 AM


Re: Signs
You're not an idiot Jay. Do NOT tell me when they speak of the end times and they use the terms:
QUICKLY.
NEAR.
NEARBY.
AT THE DOOR.
SOON.
AT HAND.
TIME IS SHORT.
LAST DAYS.
A LITTLE WHILE.
Very good. As a serious student of the Bible I also have to consider what ELSE the word of God says.
Now here is teaching of Jesus stressing endurance for long haul until vindication of His coming:
"And He told them a parable to the end that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.
Saying, There was a certain judge in a certain city who did not fear God and did not regard man. And there was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, Avenge me of my opponent.
And for a time he would not; but afterward he said within himself, Even though I do not fear God nor regard man, Yet because this widow causes me trouble, I will avenge her, lest by continually coming she wear me out.
And the Lord said, Hear what the unrighteous judge says.
And will not God by all means carry out the avenging of His chosen ones, who cry to Him day and night, though He is long-suffering over them?
I tell you that He will carry out their avenging quickly. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth ? (Luke 18:1-8)
To the world the Christian church is just like a husbandless "widow". We know that our Lord Jesus lives. But to the worldly unbelievers it is like we are waiting for a dead husband. To the world the church is a bereaved "widow."
The teaching arms the disciples for a long wait under persecution. They should not cease to pray and bother God. It may seem that God doesn't care about His word or fear the skeptics who say "See. He took too long. He's not coming."
She is to come "continually" to seek vindication from the judge. Though the judge is long-suffering towards this widow, eventually the vindication WILL come.
This is also seen in the book of Revelation of the martyrs underneath the altar crying out about how long it will take God to avenge their blood upon their murderers on the earth (Rev. 6:9-11).
Jesus still says "And will not God by all means carry out the avenging of His chosen ones, who cry to Him day and night, though He is long-suffering over them?
I tell you that He will carry out their avenging QUICKLY ..."
.
This is "quickly" according to God's speed.
And the teaching arms the Christian church for the long distance run until His second coming.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 6:31 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 5:18 PM jaywill has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 369 of 479 (564466)
06-10-2010 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by jaywill
06-10-2010 12:27 PM


Re: Signs
Jay writes:
I wonder if you are losing it.
I discuss signs in Matthew 24 and you respond that you didn't mean JUST Matthew 24. Now you seem to be saying the opposite "JUST Matthew 24".
Im fine Jay. The problem lies in the fact you're too busy trying to correct the obvious problems that you're not paying attention to what I'm asking.
I never once asked what the signs are for throughout the NT. I asked what the signs were for in Matthew.
I asked a simple question, you ignored it repeatedly, then bounced around to Matthew 23, Luke, Revelation, Peter, the OT,ect.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay writes:
The tactic of displaying exasperation at repeating yourself is getting old.
You should be able to refute me without this show.
Let me understand this. I ask a question which is the very heart of our debate. You ignore it. I ask again. You continue to ignore it. I ask over and over to stay on topic, while you bounce all around scripture while still ignoring it....and you accuse me of being boring with my question and not refuting you?
The entire point of my question was to refute you! But you wont answer it! Even your two feeble attempts didn't address the issue. You told me what the signs are, I'm asking what they are for!
I will get to Matthew 23 eventually, which again shows how lilttle reading comprehension you have? The chapter tells you whom Jesus is speaking to, which generation he is referring to....and you still get it wrong. On top of that I explain even if "this generation" in 23 refers to everyone in the past, it by no means automatically makes "this generation" in Matthew 24 the same. Hence why I keep stating to use Matthew 24, bc of the context!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is "old" is the fact that my posts are so long, and most of it has nothing to do with anything bc you're all over the place. I wanted to focus on Matthew 24. As of now, we have scripture from Revelation, Luke, Matthew 23, Peter and the OT.
Jay writes:
I did not read your websites.
And I do not see any difference. To God one day is LIKE a thousand years. And that is all I have said.
For the love of your make believe god Jay, its NOT my websites. I already told you this. They're Christian websites, apologists ones. They're not debate sites. I even gave the links which apparently you cannot be bothered to read. They're most likely the same websites you frequent in search of answers.
They state, as I have, you're taking the verse out of context. Shocking.
It does not mean a day is a thousand years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I asked this question, perhaps I missed your response.
If Jesus wanted to convey the end times were to occur recently...
Would the terms:
NEAR, NEARBY, AT HAND, AT THE DOOR, SOON, QUICKLY convey that message?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay writes:
The signs are like indications pointing to His coming. Is that what you want ?
WOW! AFTER PROBABLY 20 REQUESTS, YOU'VE FINALLY ANSWERED MY SIMPLE QUESTION!
Now, I previously asked who the "you" is. Obviously you cannot say its just the disciples/those in that time frame, so you said its refers to those in that time frame and those in the future.
Ok, fine.
From your lackluster answer, I will assume that you admit that signs are indicators to his followers when the end times are approaching and when Jesus will return?
Now, are we in agreement so far?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by jaywill, posted 06-10-2010 12:27 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by jaywill, posted 06-10-2010 6:14 PM hERICtic has replied
 Message 372 by jaywill, posted 06-10-2010 6:35 PM hERICtic has not replied
 Message 376 by jaywill, posted 06-10-2010 7:05 PM hERICtic has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 370 of 479 (564478)
06-10-2010 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by hERICtic
06-10-2010 5:18 PM


Re: Signs
Let me understand this. I ask a question which is the very heart of our debate. You ignore it. I ask again. You continue to ignore it. I ask over and over to stay on topic, while you bounce all around scripture while still ignoring it....and you accuse me of being boring with my question and not refuting you?
Concerning your last post. I have not yet read the entire post. I STOPPED to respond to this which you keep harping on.
You present to me A, B, C, D. I do not accept your A so why do you expect me to accept your B ?
While you are going on and on about how I did not answer some question I concentrated on PREVIOUS points which you seem to expect me just to lay down and accept.
Forget about it Heretic. That is why I told you when I am ready to talk about SIGNS I do so. First I attacked some of your preliminary assumptions.
I was busy examinining some of your presuppositions. If it makes you feel good to repeat "You didn't answer my C. You didn't yet answer my C. You have not yet responded to my C. I have asked you 15 times now and you haven't talked about my C!"
That's right. I was still busy correcting your A. I dealt with "this generation" until I was satisfied, not until YOU are satisfied.
Get it?
Now come back and complain that this is now the 38th time you asked me about something.
Having said this. I did finally throw you a reply to the "SIGNS" definition at message 333. And you STILL proceeded to boast that you had received no reply.
Now I am going back to see what else is in your last post.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 5:18 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 6:42 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 371 of 479 (564487)
06-10-2010 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Izanagi
10-14-2009 4:03 AM


Re: Circular Reasoning
quote:
I know you asked hooah, but I would like to weigh in on this and my opinion is no. Using vol A of Britannia to prove something in vol C of the same encyclopedia is bad argumentation because you've used the same "source" to prove something the source says. What one should do is use another source, maybe an encyclopedia by another company, and compare the two to see if they corroborate with each other. That way, your argument stands on firmer ground as you have two sources to back each other up.
I saw this mentioned earlier and had to comment.
At the same time, it would be unfair to say that when Volume A of an encyclopedia says something that seems contradictory, you can't accept as valid something from Volume C that elaborates on the stuff from Volume A and clarifies the position of the encyclopedia.
That's what's happening here. It's not a question of sourcing, but what the Bible really says. It's like taking half a statement and rejecting the other half, taking it out of context.
Thus, some here just want to provide other quotes from the Bible showing what its position is in better context.
Obviously, if working off a belief the Bible is true, then the 2 Corinthians 12 verses could very well be all that's needed to show this alleged contradiction insubstantial. Whether it happened or not is irrelevant to this particular debate. Whether one believes prophecy and seeing the future could happen is irrelevant - to this particular debate.
If the Bible allows for the fact that an answer could be that the way those living saw it was by prophecy or seeing the future, then there is a plausible alternative, at least from a straightforward reading of the Bible when giving it the benefit of the doubt, and this does not meet the hallmarks of failing internal consistency.
Essentially those disbelieving it are doing so not because of internal consistency but their already existing preinclination to disbelieve the supernatural, which is then used to claim the Bible is false - because other sources are not used for the supernatural events. Nevertheless, it is unfair to say this is definitive proof the Bible is wrong, since you are assuming it has to be wrong simply because the events could not occur even though science does not disprove their possibility - it has just never witnessed them, which isn't the same thing. And while it does not provide proof for, it is certainly neither equivalent to a self-contradiction.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 372 of 479 (564491)
06-10-2010 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by hERICtic
06-10-2010 5:18 PM


Re: Signs
From your lackluster answer, I will assume that you admit that signs are indicators to his followers
Make up your mind. Either I am too verbose or I am lackluster.
One of the most important aspects to the word SIGN in Matthew 24 is in verse 3:
"And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the discples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, When will these things be ? And what will be the sign of Your coming and of the consummation of the age. ?
Sign, in this chapter, is therefore very much related to informing the disciples to the consummation of the age and of Christ's coming.
Have I ever said anything different ? This better be good after all this fanfare.
Your move.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 5:18 PM hERICtic has not replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 373 of 479 (564493)
06-10-2010 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by jaywill
06-10-2010 6:14 PM


Re: Signs
Jay writes:
You present to me A, B, C, D. I do not accept your A so why do you expect me to accept your B ?
I presented you a question. I couldnt even get to B, you wouldnt even answer the question for A.
This is why I called you dishonest (amongst other reasons). We are discussing Matthew 24. I asked you a question about Matthew 24. You then jumped to Revelation, Matthew 23, Luke and so forth.
Jay writes:
Having said this. I did finally throw you a reply to the "SIGNS" definition at message 333. And you STILL proceeded to boast that you had received no reply.
Wow. How is it you can understand scripture and not understand a simple question. Even Huntard replied you didnt answer the question.
I asked what the signs are FOR.
You replied for something important. Well gee, Jay...no kidding. Hence why I asked what they are FOR.
I would say over 75% of your posts are either preaching, going off an tangents or changing the topic.
Jay writes:
Sign, in this chapter, is therefore very much related to informing the disciples to the consummation of the age and of Christ's coming.
Have I ever said anything different ? This better be good after all this fanfare.
Sheesh. You never ONCE stated that after I asked the question. Not once.
Good. We can move on. It only took, what 100 posts, for you to actually stay on topic?
We are discussing Matthew 24 and the signs.
You have admitted the signs are for his followers to know when the end times are to arrive as well as the second coming of Jesus.
Now, if I said to you, I'm having a surprise party for my wife and I do not want anyone to show up while she is home. So I'm going to give a sign that is has gone. That way everyone knows to come into the house before she arrives again.
That sign will be when you see my car backed into my driveway, with a bicycle on the ground in front of the car.
Would this be a good sign Jay?

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 Message 370 by jaywill, posted 06-10-2010 6:14 PM jaywill has not replied

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Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 374 of 479 (564495)
06-10-2010 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by hERICtic
06-10-2010 6:42 PM


Re: Signs
quote:
You have admitted the signs are for his followers to know when the end times are to arrive as well as the second coming of Jesus.
Now, if I said to you, I'm having a surprise party for my wife and I do not want anyone to show up while she is home. So I'm going to give a sign that is has gone. That way everyone knows to come into the house before she arrives again.
That sign will be when you see my car backed into my driveway, with a bicycle on the ground in front of the car.
As long as it's recognized by 'followers' is meant all generations of future followers of Christ who believe.
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 6:42 PM hERICtic has not replied

  
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 375 of 479 (564498)
06-10-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by Jzyehoshua
06-10-2010 6:25 PM


Re: Circular Reasoning
Also, the Bible is unusual since it treats itself as so authoritative that rather than needing other sources, it is itself sufficient as 'THE' source. At the same time though, it was more accountable in its transmission than is known, since those who falsely prophesied were put to death even from long ago.
Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Zechariah 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
This is a pretty strong standard of accountability for Biblical authors. If they said something would come to pass and it didn't, they were put to death. The Bible itself declared it necessary to kill those who claimed to be prophets without being accurate as an assurance for its truthfulness.
Furthermore, there are other sources than humanity. A book could for example use sound logical reason, statements about the universe, human nature, nature in general, etc. If right often enough about readily verifiable facts, it would begin to build up for itself a record as accurate and consistent - by which to support its more extravagant and less verifiable claims - so long as they weren't certifiably false through self-contradiction or undisputable witness to the contrary. Especially if these were cited well before their time when such facts weren't readily accepted, it would be evident as more accurate on even controversial elements.
And actually, there is a very strong witness from history and archeology that has shown the Bible accurate on numerous disputed points. In some cases, it appears almost coincidental that history preserves so strong a record of Biblical events merely to prove them right. The Bible also provides names, dates (such as those according to the Persian calendar in the famous Daniel 9 prophecy), locations, etc. for historical verification. It is not afraid to cite facts about nature or facts about the universe or anything else for independent verification.
Ultimately, if God is the author, it wouldn't make sense for him or to defer to humans or their writings as his sources, since he'd be above them - they should be sourcing him. But he could use the historical record and nature itself as a means for verifying the book to those who might question it.
Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-10-2010 6:25 PM Jzyehoshua has not replied

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 Message 378 by hERICtic, posted 06-10-2010 7:50 PM Jzyehoshua has not replied

  
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