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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Polytheistic?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 136 of 375 (564604)
06-11-2010 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Dr Adequate
06-10-2010 11:54 PM


Re: Thanks
Yes - Each religion will impose it's own qualifications and subtleties. But so what? Satan is a god in every way that is used to define gods in every objective use of the term.
Not necessarily. For example it would be an objective criterion to require that a "god" should be an object of veneration and worship.
Satan is the "object of veneration and worship". Satanic worship

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-10-2010 11:54 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-11-2010 11:25 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 137 of 375 (564609)
06-11-2010 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Modulous
06-11-2010 3:28 AM


Re: Polytheistic Roots of Christianity
This, however, I've never heard before. Israel was the name Jacob adopted after wrestling with {god/an angel/something else} and he had 12 sons who would form the 12 tribes of Israel. So the Israelites are the descendents of Jacob. It seems 'children of Israel' is the most sensible translation to me - does Wright have something up his sleeve I've not seen before?
I will look this up tonight and get back to you. He may be talking bollocks. I may have understood it wrong from his book. Or he may have something you haven't heard of before.
Aye - the fossils in the OT are fun to read through.
Indeed. I am learning a lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Modulous, posted 06-11-2010 3:28 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 138 of 375 (564620)
06-11-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Straggler
06-11-2010 6:37 AM


Re: Thanks
So Satan is excluded from the general concept of god because the specific Christian doctrine doesn’t like it.
Wrong.
You keep acting as if religions create a god definition then look for beings that fit it. They don't. All religions define their gods by making lists of those they consider god. Satan isn't in Christianity's list. That's why Satan isn't a god in Christianity.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 6:37 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 11:49 AM subbie has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 139 of 375 (564623)
06-11-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Straggler
06-11-2010 6:41 AM


Re: Thanks
Satan is the "object of veneration and worship".
Yes, but not by Christians. Satanists can't introduce Satan into the Christian pantheon by worshiping him any more than you can introduce pencils into the Christian pantheon by worshiping them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 6:41 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 12:09 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 140 of 375 (564624)
06-11-2010 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by subbie
06-11-2010 10:35 AM


Re: Thanks
Subbie writes:
You keep acting as if religions create a god definition then look for beings that fit it.
No. I keep acting as if we can recognise theism and god concepts without recourse to specific religious definitions. Exactly as Slevesque did when discussing the cultural universality of belief in God/Gods.Was he suggesting that belief in the Christian God is culturally universal? So what religion-independent concept of god was he talking about?
Subbie writes:
All religions define their gods by making lists of those they consider god.
How can we recognise religion or belief in gods where those who believe don’t use the English word god?
Subbie writes:
Satan isn't in Christianity's list. That's why Satan isn't a god in Christianity.
Of course Christians are going to rebrand the term god to uphold their own self proclaimed assertions of monotheism. But to anyone not applying the specific Christian definition, including Christians when they are discussing theism more objectively, biblical Christianity is polytheistic. Not monotheistic.
Dr Sing writes:
Slevesque is not talking about the Bible God or YHWH. He is referring to the general concept of god. And for the zillionth time, satan is excluded because Christianity is a monotheistic religion which defines God as one person or one person as God--YHWH.
My emphasis. So tell me on what basis is Satan discluded from qualifying for this more objective and general concept of god that is religiously independent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by subbie, posted 06-11-2010 10:35 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 141 of 375 (564625)
06-11-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Dr Adequate
06-11-2010 11:25 AM


Re: Thanks
Satan is the "object of veneration and worship".
Yes, but not by Christians.
Of course not by Christians. But do Christians need to worship, or even believe in the existence of, Apollo in order to recognise Apollo as a god concept?
We can recognise theism and god concepts in vastly diverse cultures, ancient and modern, without recourse to the particular distinctions of specific religions or the need for those believers to use the English word "god".
How do we do this?
And aside from Christian assertion and protestation in what sense does the concept of Satan not qualify as such?
Satanists can't introduce Satan into the Christian pantheon by worshiping him any more than you can introduce pencils into the Christian pantheon by worshiping them.
Of course Christians are going to rebrand the term god to uphold their own self proclaimed assertions of monotheism. But to anyone not applying the specific Christian definition, including Christians when they are discussing theism more objectively, biblical Christianity is polytheistic. Not monotheistic.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-11-2010 11:25 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2010 12:52 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 157 by subbie, posted 06-11-2010 4:35 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 171 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-12-2010 1:39 AM Straggler has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 375 (564627)
06-11-2010 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
06-06-2010 6:41 AM


Re: Is Christianity Polytheistic?
But they are just being inconsistent in their use of the term "god".
One would first have to be able to define God, and quite frankly, that's a slippery slope.
To accept Apollo as an example of a god concept in a polytheistic belief system but to deny that the concept of Satan in biblical Christianity is anything other than the same is just equivocation.
It sounds as if you are the one that is equivocating, since it is you saying that angels and Apollo are all gods, if not demi-gods.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 06-06-2010 6:41 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 12:43 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 143 of 375 (564629)
06-11-2010 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Hyroglyphx
06-11-2010 12:20 PM


Re: Is Christianity Polytheistic?
We can recognise theism and god concepts in vastly diverse cultures, ancient and modern, without recourse to the particular distinctions of specific religions or the need for those believers to use the English word "god".
How do we do this?
And aside from Christian assertion and protestation in what sense does the concept of Satan not qualify as such?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2010 12:20 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2010 12:59 PM Straggler has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 375 (564632)
06-11-2010 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Straggler
06-11-2010 12:09 PM


Compartmentalising God
Of course not by Christians. But do Christians need to worship, or even believe in the existence of, Apollo in order to recognise Apollo as a god concept?
What exactly are you trying to prove here? Please clarify your intentions. Are you saying that Christianity is actually rooted in polytheistic beliefs, or that Christians aren't recognising that Satan is actually a god?
aside from Christian assertion and protestation in what sense does the concept of Satan not qualify as such?
What is your assertion that Satan should be viewed as a god? That's the better question. The answer to your questions is lacking. Christians don't view Satan as a god because according to dogma he's an angel, albeit, fallen.
To literalistic Satanists, Satan is a god. So to them Satan is a god. All that matters is the context, seems to me. Because really we're dealing with beliefs, not objective facts. In order to arbitrate what God is or isn't, or what God should be or should not be, we'd first have to prove the existence of God. Therein lies the crux.
Of course Christians are going to rebrand the term god to uphold their own self proclaimed assertions of monotheism. But to anyone not applying the specific Christian definition, including Christians when they are discussing theism more objectively, biblical Christianity is polytheistic. Not monotheistic.
It sounds like you are taking certain attributes and have come up with what you personally as god-like attributes. Apparently you want this to be univeral -- that we all see things as you do. God is a very broad and open term, seems to me, and you don't have the copywrite on compartmentalising God.
I'm fairly certain this is what people are taking exception to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 12:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 1:22 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 375 (564634)
06-11-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Straggler
06-11-2010 12:43 PM


Re: Is Christianity Polytheistic?
We can recognise theism and god concepts in vastly diverse cultures, ancient and modern, without recourse to the particular distinctions of specific religions or the need for those believers to use the English word "god".
How do we do this?
Yes, and other cultures have concepts of hell and demons too. One could juxtapose the Hellenic version of Hades with the Budhist version of hell and find both similarities and dissimilarities. It doesn't mean anything though.
For Faith, she would say that Allah is actually a demon posing as a God. It's a completely vacuous and unsubstantiated assertion, but those are her beliefs.
That Allah shares god-like status to some, but demonic status to others doesn't make either claim true or false.
And aside from Christian assertion and protestation in what sense does the concept of Satan not qualify as such?
What universal characteristic are you looking for that the whole world should be united in seeing Satan as a God? That's what I'm saying. No one is the arbiter, least of all, you.
So what precisely is the point you're trying to make?

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 146 of 375 (564637)
06-11-2010 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Hyroglyphx
06-11-2010 12:52 PM


Re: Compartmentalising God
What exactly are you trying to prove here? Please clarify your intentions.
When we talk about theism objectively (i.e. without doing so through the specific lense of a particular religion) we can all recognise god concepts in a variety of cultures regardless of language. Christians themselves, including those taking part in this thread, do so all the time when discussing theism in general. (see quotes below)
When discussing theism in these objective terms the concept of Satan is as worthy of godhood as any other such concept. So in what objective religion-independent sense is biblical Christianity not polytheistic?
Slevesque writes:
I do think that the belief in God/Gods (the theistic position) is innate in humans, even in evolutionary theory. The belief in a particular God/Gods is of course acquired knowledge though. Message 75
Slevesque writes:
Well the main point is just the title: Children are born believers in God academic claims Message 92
Slevesque writes:
What I have claimed is at the very least probable, since why then would every culture around the world have the concept of God/Gods ? Message 84
Dr Sing writes:
I have hindu, muslim, buddhist, and even parsi friends who have a accruate, well defined defition of god....just it would be in a diffetenrt language. But the concept is the same.
So is Slevesque talking about the Christian God in these examples? If not what concept of god is he talking about? And why would Satan be discluded from that?
No one is the arbiter, least of all, you.
The last thing I am claiming to be is an arbiter of what is god. What I want to know is how anyone can recognise theism or god concepts in other cultures without also concluding that Satan is just such a concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2010 12:52 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2010 1:53 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 150 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-11-2010 2:13 PM Straggler has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 375 (564640)
06-11-2010 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Straggler
06-11-2010 1:22 PM


Re: Compartmentalising God
So is Slevesque talking about the Christian God in these examples? If not what concept of god is he talking about? And why would Satan be discluded from that?
Why not a teacup, for good measure? Anyone could attribute anything as god-like. The point is, it doesn't matter.
Besides, many Christians do claim that Satan is the "God of this world," meaning he has a foothold on the earthly and temporal realm, whereas God's realm is spiritual.
What I want to know is how anyone can recognise theism or god concepts in other cultures without also concluding that Satan is just such a concept.
Because their religious books state that Satan is an angel, not a God. You keep taking attributes of the supernatural and are placing them on par with being God.
If you are asking whether or not Christianity is just an example of hybrid religions synthesizing in to what we know today as Christianity, I think there is room for the argument. But you are taking belief and expecting everyone to know what you are saying is an object fact.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 1:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 149 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 2:02 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 148 of 375 (564641)
06-11-2010 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Hyroglyphx
06-11-2010 1:53 PM


Re: Compartmentalising God
Why not a teacup, for good measure? Anyone could attribute anything as god-like. The point is, it doesn't matter.
When an anthropologist studies a culture and its language, how does he conclude the word Schmal, is the Goloy people's word for god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2010 1:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 149 of 375 (564644)
06-11-2010 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Hyroglyphx
06-11-2010 1:53 PM


Re: Compartmentalising God
Why not a teacup, for good measure?
When anthropologists discover or discuss cultures that have demonstrated theistic belief in god concepts does a belief in the existence of teacups qualify?
I believe in the existence of teacups. Yet I would not say I am a theist. Nor would I say that teacups are a god concept. And I doubt any future anthropologist looking back at my diaries would do so either.
But you are taking belief and expecting everyone to know what you are saying is an object fact.
No. I am asking how we objectively recognise forms of theism and concepts of god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-11-2010 1:53 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 375 (564645)
06-11-2010 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Straggler
06-11-2010 1:22 PM


The last thing I am claiming to be is an arbiter of what is god. What I want to know is how anyone can recognise theism or god concepts in other cultures without also concluding that Satan is just such a concept.
Satan IS including as such a concept. Like, there are satanists who worship satan as a god and that god concept would be included as a part of the group of cultures that have god concepts and are considered theists.
When discussing theism in these objective terms the concept of Satan is as worthy of godhood as any other such concept. So in what objective religion-independent sense is biblical Christianity not polytheistic?
Christians don't worship or recognize satan as thier god, or one of their gods... although that's hardly religion-independent. But you have to be religion-dependent to see the problem with your position. Christians recognizing that there are other god concepts besides their own does not bring them to the position of believing in the existence of multiple gods, as required for polytheism. Observing the existence of multiple god concepts does not make one a believer in multiple Gods (I'm using god and God differently here).
Now, I do see what I think you are seeing as an inconsistency here, in that satan counts as a god when we're counting up cultures that have gods but does not count as a god when we're talking about how many gods there are... but your conclusion that Christianity should be considered polytheistic doesn't follow from that. You're conflating two different things that are being labeled as "god". One is the god of another group, as in the concept of them having a god, and the other is the god that one believes actually exists as a God.
So, you want to say that Christians should be considering these other groups' gods as Gods when they're counting up the groups with gods if they want to be consistant, but they're counting up the groups that have the concept of a god, but not counting up those groups whose gods are cosidered God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 1:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 2:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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