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Author Topic:   Is Christianity Polytheistic?
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 151 of 375 (564646)
06-11-2010 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by New Cat's Eye
06-11-2010 2:13 PM


Specifics and
If Christians will objectively and religion-independently consider Loki (for example) as a god concept why won't they (with the same objective hat on) accept Satan as a god concept? And thus (objectively speaking) accept that Christianity is polytheistic?
Frankly Dr Sing has summed up the contradictory nature of the Christian position on this better than I ever could:
Dr Sing writes:
Slevesque is not talking about the Bible God or YHWH. He is referring to the general concept of god. And for the zillionth time, satan is excluded because Christianity is a monotheistic religion which defines God as one person or one person as God--YHWH.
So Satan is excluded from the general concept of god because the specific Christian doctrine doesn’t like it.
One is the god of another group, as in the concept of them having a god, and the other is the god that one believes actually exists as a God.
Do biblical Christians believe that Satan exists?
If he was a character in any other religion would biblical Christians consider Satan to be a (albeit false) god concept?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-11-2010 2:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-11-2010 2:37 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 159 by subbie, posted 06-11-2010 4:48 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 165 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-12-2010 1:10 AM Straggler has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 375 (564648)
06-11-2010 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Straggler
06-11-2010 2:22 PM


Re: Specifics and
If Christians will objectively and religion-independently consider Loki (for example) as a god concept why won't they (with the same objective hat on) accept Satan as a god concept?
They would. As I said, Satanists have a god concept and it is satan.
And thus (objectively speaking) accept that Christianity is polytheistic?
Because even though they recognize that satan can be a god concept, they don't think that he is a God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 2:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 4:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 153 of 375 (564654)
06-11-2010 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Straggler
06-10-2010 4:12 PM


Re: Equivocations and Contradictions
Of course Christians are going to rebrand the term god to uphold their own self proclaimed assertions. But to anyone not applying the specific Christian definition, including Christians when they are discussing theism more objectively, the term "god" blatantly includes concepts such as Satan.
I would hazard to say that a Christian, if they're being honest, would say that Satan meets the minimum requirements to be considered a god, when speaking in the broad sense of the term. However, in Christianity, Satan doesn't meet the additinal requirements, so Satan is not considered a god in Christianity.
The thing is, many things that almost no one would consider a god meets these requirements, such as fairies, pixies, leprechauns, angels, demons, and ghosts.
I am not interested (in this thread) in what argument Christians are making when they use the term "god". I am interested only in the concepts that they apply this term to and that the application of said term to indicate that which they would accept as genuine forms of theistic belief.
As with most people, thy let the person they are describing as theist define the term god. Me, being an atheist, I don't believe any of the god concepts are real, but I don't consider everyone to be an atheist. They all believe in a god as they define it. The definition is subjective, and most people, when talking about other cultures or people, let those other people or cultures define god(s) in their own way, and then we take them at their word.
The contradiction arises when they want to apply the term god to the beliefs of other cultures whilst denying that Satan is any form of god. See Slevesque's use of the term in the quotes below (incidentally notice the large G)
Satan is a Christian concept, therefore Christians get to define the parameters, even when a Muslim or Hindu is talking about them. Conversely, a Christian, when talking about Hindus' beliefs, must accept the Hindus' definition of gods. It's not a contradiction, it's an understanding of the conflicting definitions and different cultures. The most honest thing to do is to judge a culture or religion by that culture or religion's own parameters, rather than trying to force it into a foreing framework.
So is Slevesque talking about the Christian God in these examples? If not what concept of god is he talking about? And why would Satan be discluded from that?
You'd have to ask Slevesque that. I can't read his mind to decipher what he meant, especially out of context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2010 4:12 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 4:27 PM Perdition has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 154 of 375 (564663)
06-11-2010 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by New Cat's Eye
06-11-2010 2:37 PM


Re: Specifics and
If Christians will objectively and religion-independently consider Loki (for example) as a god concept why won't they (with the same objective hat on) accept Satan as a god concept?
They would.
So objectively speaking Satan is a god concept. Thankyou.
And thus (objectively speaking) accept that Christianity is polytheistic?
Because even though they recognize that satan can be a god concept, they don't think that he is a God.
Of course. Any more than a I would expect that a Christian would accept that Vishnu or Thor or Apollo or Odin or Kali to be a "God".
Yet if both Satan and Yahweh are objectively recognised as god concepts then this indisputably makes biblical Christianity objectively polytheistic does it not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-11-2010 2:37 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-11-2010 4:47 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 160 by subbie, posted 06-11-2010 4:58 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 155 of 375 (564664)
06-11-2010 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Perdition
06-11-2010 3:39 PM


Re: Equivocations and Contradictions
I would hazard to say that a Christian, if they're being honest, would say that Satan meets the minimum requirements to be considered a god, when speaking in the broad sense of the term.
When Christians talk about the cultural universality of belief in god concepts it indisputably includes concepts such as Satan.
The qualifier you make "if they're being honest" says all that needs to be said about the Christian denial of this fact and the equivocation of this term.
You'd have to ask Slevesque that. I can't read his mind to decipher what he meant, especially out of context.
I have. And he has not answered. I wonder why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Perdition, posted 06-11-2010 3:39 PM Perdition has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 156 of 375 (564665)
06-11-2010 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Straggler
06-11-2010 11:49 AM


Re: Thanks
No. I keep acting as if we can recognise theism and god concepts without recourse to specific religious definitions.
But I bet you can't generalize those concepts into a one-size-fits-all general definition of what a god is or what a god does that fits all gods in all religions. Some religions have beings that those religions consider gods that are functionally or descriptively quite similar to beings from other religions that are not considered gods. That doesn't make either of them disingenuous, just different. The attributes of Satan might very well be identical to attributes of a different being that another religion considers a god. So what? That just means that the religions that are different are not the same. Wow, fascinating discovery.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 11:49 AM Straggler has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 157 of 375 (564666)
06-11-2010 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Straggler
06-11-2010 12:09 PM


Re: Thanks
Of course Christians are going to rebrand the term god to uphold their own self proclaimed assertions of monotheism.
You seem to think that this practice is unique to Christianity. Every religion rebrands the term "god" to fit their conception of who god is. It's inherent in the practice of religion on Earth. So what?
But to anyone not applying the specific Christian definition, including Christians when they are discussing theism more objectively, biblical Christianity is polytheistic. Not monotheistic.
So a believer in a different religion might call Satan god. That's really quite irrelevant to what Christians think. I daresay that the adherents of each religion are allowed to define their own religion and need not conform it to anything that any other religion believes.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 12:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2010 1:11 AM subbie has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 375 (564667)
06-11-2010 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Straggler
06-11-2010 4:22 PM


Re: Specifics and
Yet if both Satan and Yahweh are objectively recognised as god concepts then this indisputably makes biblical Christianity objectively polytheistic does it not?
Of course not. And frankly, that's retarded. Nice try though You get an 'A' for effort.
Unless you want to argue the definition of "polytheistic"?
quote:
Polytheism is the belief in and/or worship of multiple deities, called gods and/or goddesses. These are usually assembled into a pantheon, along with their own mythologies and rituals. Many religions, both historical and contemporary, have a belief in polytheism, such as Shinto, Ancient Greek Polytheism, Roman Polytheism, Germanic Polytheism, Slavic polytheism, Chinese folk religion, Mahayana Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism,and Neopagan faiths.
Polytheists do not always worship all the gods equally, but can be monolatrists, specialising in the worship of one particular deity. Other polytheists can be kathenotheists, worshiping different deities at different times.
Polytheism (belief in one or more gods), is a type of theism but contrasts with monotheism (belief in a singular god), which is the dominant belief in the world today. In certain religions, such as Wicca, the various deities are seen as emanations of a greater Godhead.from wiki
How could it be any less clear unless you are desperately trying to make Christianity out to be polytheistic?

ABE:
Yet if both Satan and Yahweh are objectively recognised as god concepts then this indisputably makes biblical Christianity objectively polytheistic does it not?
Assuming you're correct, that would make everybody a polythiest...
Do you deny that Yahweh is a god concept or are you a polythiest?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see abe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 4:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2010 12:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 159 of 375 (564668)
06-11-2010 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Straggler
06-11-2010 2:22 PM


Re: Specifics and
If Christians will objectively and religion-independently consider Loki (for example) as a god concept why won't they (with the same objective hat on) accept Satan as a god concept? And thus (objectively speaking) accept that Christianity is polytheistic?
You're trying to disconnect a particular god, Loki, from his religion and establish that he's generally a god. You can't do that. Nothing and nobody is generally a god. You cannot describe anything as god without putting it in the context of a particular religion.
Muslims believe that Christ was an actual person, but deny that he was a god. Thus, it's impossible to give a yes or no answer to the question, "Was Christ god?" You have to add, "in X religion."
As someone here has said, Christians will accept Satan as a god concept, given that there are religions that regard him as such. Recognizing that concept is not at all the same as believing Satan is a god in Christianity, any more than a Muslim recognizing that Christ is a god in Christianity is the same as believing that Christ is a god in Islam.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 2:22 PM Straggler has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 160 of 375 (564669)
06-11-2010 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Straggler
06-11-2010 4:22 PM


Re: Specifics and
Yet if both Satan and Yahweh are objectively recognised as god concepts then this indisputably makes biblical Christianity objectively polytheistic does it not?
Continuing your equivocation, I see.
You're trying to make "god concept" the same as "god." They are different terms. I recognize that there are hundreds of different god concepts. That doesn't make me polytheistic, because I don't believe that any of them are actually gods. I could be persuaded to believe in the physical existence of both Christ and Muhammad, but that belief in their existence isn't nearly the same as believing they are gods.
If all you mean to say is that Christianity recognizes the existence of multiple beings that one or more religions consider to be god, I doubt that anyone here would disagree with you. But then, that isn't what anyone else in the world considers to be polytheism, so it doesn't really help your position much.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 4:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2010 12:43 AM subbie has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 161 of 375 (564713)
06-12-2010 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Pauline
06-10-2010 10:34 PM


Normal people want to worship good gods....you know, favorable ones. And yet, you seem to to be taken aback when I include the criterion, benevolent?
Actually no. Historically most people have wanted their gods to be benevolent to their followers but to kick the ass of everyone else.
This is indisputably true of yahweh of the OT. It remains true for many brands of modern Christianity and Islam. And I see little reason to expect the concept of Satan to act much differently.
So, do you have a problem with that?
You have the problem. If by "benevolent" you mean benevolent to everyone then your general criteria for godliness excludes pretty much every god concept humanity has ever envisaged including many versions of your own. Howevr if by "benevolent" you simply mean benevolent to the followers of that particular superatural entity then you include as gods pretty much every such concept ever conceived including Satan (which I am guessing you are trying to avoid).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 10:34 PM Pauline has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 162 of 375 (564715)
06-12-2010 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by subbie
06-11-2010 4:58 PM


Alien Anthropologists
But then, that isn't what anyone else in the world considers to be polytheism, so it doesn't really help your position much.
Hmmmm.
Can anthropologists, arcaheologists and historians recognise forms of theism and god concepts without relying on the specific definitions and qualifications imposed by individual religions?
If an alien anthropologist studying the dead race of humanity in the far flung future investigated biblical Christianity they would conclude that it is a polytheistic religion that considered itself monotheistic.
In objective terms Satan is no less a god concept than many other concepts accepted as such by Christians and everyone else.
Continuing your equivocation, I see.
Just becaue you cannot get past the idea that I am imposing one religions definition of god onto another does not mean that this is what I am actually doing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by subbie, posted 06-11-2010 4:58 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by subbie, posted 06-12-2010 1:04 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 163 of 375 (564716)
06-12-2010 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by New Cat's Eye
06-11-2010 4:47 PM


Satan Exists!!
Do biblical Christians believe Satan exists?
How could it be any less clear unless you are desperately trying to make Christianity out to be polytheistic?
Can anthropologists, arcaheologists and historians recognise forms of theism and god concepts without relying on the specific definitions and qualifications imposed by individual religions?
If an alien anthropologist studying the dead race of humanity in the far flung future investigated biblical Christianity they would conclude that it is a polytheistic religion that considered itself monotheistic.
In objective terms Satan is no less a god concept than many other concepts accepted as such by Christians and everyone else.
Do you deny that Yahweh is a god concept or are you a polythiest?
Yahweh is a god concept. So is Apolllo. So is Satan. So is Loki. So is Zeus. So is Thor. Etc.
But I don't believe any of them exist. Thus I am not a polytheist or any other sort of theist.
How many of those god concepts to biblical Christians believe exist?
Polytheism is the belief in and/or worship of multiple deities, called gods and/or goddesses.
Biblical Christians believe in the existence of both Satan and Yahweh. The only reason they accept Loki (for example) as a god concept but deny the same status to Satan is because they believe Satan exists and the existence of two god concepts doesn't fit well with their monotheistic view of themselves.
Biblical Christians are polytheists by all but their own definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-11-2010 4:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2010 1:12 PM Straggler has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 164 of 375 (564718)
06-12-2010 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Straggler
06-12-2010 12:43 AM


Re: Alien Anthropologists
Can anthropologists, arcaheologists and historians recognise forms of theism and god concepts without relying on the specific definitions and qualifications imposed by individual religions?
No, because those forms of theism and god concepts exist only as generalizations from those individuals religions.
If an alien anthropologist studying the dead race of humanity in the far flung future investigated biblical Christianity they would conclude that it is a polytheistic religion that considered itself monotheistic.
{AbE}Yes, because it worships the father, son and holy spirit. But not because of Satan, because it doesn't consider Satan a god.{end edit}
In objective terms Satan is no less a god concept than many other concepts accepted as such by Christians and everyone else.
I've already agreed with this, but explained why it doesn't help your position.
Just becaue you cannot get past the idea that I am imposing one religions definition of god onto another does not mean that this is what I am actually doing.
Christianity doesn't consider Satan to be a god, but other religions do. You are therefore insisting that Christianity must be polytheistic because it recognizes the existence of a being that other religions call a god. What do I have wrong?
Edited by subbie, : As noted.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2010 12:43 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2010 1:17 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 165 of 375 (564719)
06-12-2010 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Straggler
06-11-2010 2:22 PM


Re: Specifics and
If Christians will objectively and religion-independently consider Loki (for example) as a god concept why won't they (with the same objective hat on) accept Satan as a god concept?
And they would accept pencils as the god-concept of pencil-worshipers. But that doesn't make Christians polytheistic, even though Christians believe in the existence of pencils.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2010 2:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2010 1:22 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

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