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Author Topic:   Creationists: Why is Evolution Bad Science?
Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 251 of 283 (552842)
03-31-2010 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Oliver
02-10-2010 3:53 PM


Macro-Evolution is based on inference, guess work and huge leaps of faith in order to arrive at mans desired outcome.
Could you give us specific examples of "guess work and huge leaps of faith"?

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 Message 248 by Oliver, posted 02-10-2010 3:53 PM Oliver has not replied

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 Message 252 by Peg, posted 04-01-2010 8:39 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 253 of 283 (553092)
04-01-2010 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Peg
04-01-2010 8:39 AM


from what i've read, macroevolution rests on 3 'main' assumptions
The first is that mutations are the starting block in the evolution of new species.
I would define mutation as the source of new variation.
The 2nd is that natural selection leads to the production of new species.
This part gets a bit messy. There are two types of speciation we need to look at. First is temporal, that is change over time in a single lineage. The second is divergence where two lineages split and accumulate different changes over time resulting in different species in modern times.
Let's use languages as an analogy. The Romance Languages (e.g. French, Italian, Spanish) have "evolved" over time from Latin. If we look at just French we can track the changes from Latin to French over time. We can also look at how French has diverged from Italian resulting in two modern language groups that are unable to understand each other, language species if you will.
So macroevolution is the accumulation of microevolutionary changes with the added mechanism of divergence, the production of two lineages that move away from each other over time.
and the 3rd is that the fossil record demonstrates these macroevolutionary changes in plants and animals.
This gives us the temporal sequence of changes. However, genetics offers a rich resource for looking at how lineages diverge. For example, we can compare the genomes of humans, chimps, and gorillas. In doing so we can determine what the genome of the common ancestor looked like and the specific DNA changes that occurred in each lineage. Genetics is a much more powerful tool for looking at macroevolution.

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Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 269 of 283 (565034)
06-14-2010 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Jzyehoshua
06-14-2010 12:23 PM


Re: Assumptions
My point is that while we keep hearing about the ability of animals to make drastic evolutionary leaps between species, we have yet to see any evidence of it.
That's exactly what the fossil record shows us, transitions between species such as the hominid transitional fossils.
As the Brothers Winn point out, we've been watching bacteria since the invention of the microscope, and while they have adapted as bacteria, they've never become a new, higher form of life.
Why would they need to change into a "higher life form"? Bacteria are the most successful type of life on Earth. Single celled organisms make up the vast majority of the biomass on Earth.
Same with canaries. They may adapt within an apparent parent species, but do not become an entirely new line.
Evolution does not produce entirely new lines. Evolution produces species that are modifications of their ancestors. You are what your ancestors were, plus modifications. Humans are still apes, as was our common ancestor with apes. Humans are still primates as was our common ancestor with other primates. Humans are still mammals, as was our common ancestor with other mammals.
This is why Creationists always differ between microevolution and macroevolution. We can observe natural selection and adaptation right now. However it is faith by which one relies upon interspeciary evolution, which appears more a philosophy of Darwin's that all had a common ancestor, than one of his more solidly supported facts.
Is it by faith that we observe transitional fossils? Is it by faith that we observe humans and chimps sharing the same genetic markers that are indicative of common ancestry (e.g. shared psuedogenes, orthologous ERV's)? Is it by faith that we find agreement between the differences between the human and chimp genome and the observed mutation rate?
Common ancestry is supported by solid facts, despite your protestations.
Evolutionists will say that it takes so long to occur we can't see this type of evolution, that it takes so long we won't be able to see it happening.
We can see it in the genomes of living species and in the fossil record.
The news has had major press received that the human family tree is now instead a 'bush' with dead ends everywhere.
These fossils still demonstrate transitional features which is exactly what we should see if humans and chimps share a common ancestor.
Again, not only is there a complete lack of proof for this interspeciary change,
That is completely false. Genetics alone is enough to establish human and chimp common ancestry as a fact. The theory of evolution explains why we are different.

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 Message 268 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-14-2010 12:23 PM Jzyehoshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-14-2010 1:22 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 272 of 283 (565064)
06-14-2010 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Jzyehoshua
06-14-2010 1:22 PM


Re: Assumptions
I know that they share in common a great percentage of their DNA (though I believe Neanderthal Man was even closer). It's around 95 or even 98%, correct?
It is both. Of the DNA we share from common ancestry the sequence is 98% homologous. When you include DNA that has been deleted or inserted since common ancestry there is 95% homology across the entire genome. The 98% measures point mutations and the 95% measures indels (i.e. insertions and deletions).
And yet, genetics has now proven the existence of a 'mitochondrial eve', a direct human ancestor to all humans.
There is a different "Eve" for every gene in the human genome. If the human race goes through a sever population bottleneck in the next 10 years the next Eve may very well be living today. Not all human lineages survive to this day so it is expected that all but one lineage for a given gene will remain. A good analogy is a small isolated village where just a few surnames can be found. When the village first started there may have been many families with many different surnames, but over time one surname tends to dominate.
Isn't this the exact same thing he spoke of? Showing all human species descended singularly rather than via mass evolution? And that it would show parent species, not a single common ancestor for all species? And if not, then what evidence was he saying would be needed?
If all human species descended from a single parent species then we would expect to see modern humans in sediment which dates to 5 million before present. We don't. Instead, we see the gradual appearance of human features over that 5 million years period, from australopithecines up through H. ergaster and H. erectus. Without DNA it is impossible to tell if any of these fossils are in our direct lineage, but from the fossils we can know which modern human features evolved first, and in what order.

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 Message 270 by Jzyehoshua, posted 06-14-2010 1:22 PM Jzyehoshua has not replied

  
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