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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


(1)
Message 376 of 477 (564355)
06-10-2010 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Dr Adequate
05-04-2010 6:16 AM


quote:
(2) Since you mention it, I don't see why we can't extrapolate from our experience to draw conclusions about the afterlife. We observe that when part of the brain ceases to work, this results in the loss of the corresponding mental function. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that when the whole of my brain stops working, as it will when I'm dead, I will have no mental functions whatsoever, i.e. that I will actually be dead. This is not a cheerful conclusion, but I don't see much of a way around it. of course one can imagine a miracle, but one could do that with respect to any question at all. Given a miracle, monkeys might fly out of my butt, but I don't expect that to happen either.
Can you experiement through this? That's just a human explanation by human speculation without experimental support to bring it into a scientific truth.
Hate to burst your bubble here though, IT IS YOUR FAITH! So don't sound if it is a scientific truth that nothing exists after death. Or should you write some scientific reports to conclude that "void after death is proven"? Gee.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-04-2010 6:16 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by dennis780, posted 06-19-2010 7:51 AM Hawkins has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3736 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 377 of 477 (564397)
06-10-2010 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Huntard
06-06-2010 3:28 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
someone writes:
All this aside. Slavery is irrelevant. God does not see his creations as slaves.
Huntard writes:
? But his creations see each other as slaves. So, what does god do? Does he make it perfectly clear that we should not treat each other as property? Nope, in fact, he allows it and sets up rules for it.
This fallacy is called, "the babbling from inaccurate knowledge" fallacy, courtesy Dr. Sing.
Seriously, Huntard. I thought you were a rational guy.
Unless you understand (or even attempt to) the big picture of how things work in the Bible, you are doomed to misinterpret it in abysmally wrong ways....like what you were just doing.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Huntard, posted 06-06-2010 3:28 PM Huntard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by AZPaul3, posted 06-10-2010 10:23 AM Pauline has replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 378 of 477 (564406)
06-10-2010 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Pauline
06-10-2010 9:10 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Huntard writes:
But his creations see each other as slaves. So, what does god do? Does he make it perfectly clear that we should not treat each other as property? Nope, in fact, he allows it and sets up rules for it.
Dr. Sing responds:
Unless you understand (or even attempt to) the big picture of how things work in the Bible, you are doomed to misinterpret it in abysmally wrong ways....like what you were just doing.
Oh. Huntard is wrong and there is an admonition from god against slavery? Is the affecting passage in the OT or the NT? Either? Both?
And Huntard is wrong about the biblical rules for slave owners on how to buy, sell, punish? Are Leviticus and Exodus no longer in the standard cannon?
And 1 Timothy 6, Luke 12? Paul's admonitions to the bonded and their masters in Ephesians 6? All are now gone?
Or are they ...
Just exactly where and how did Huntard make this "the babbling from inaccurate knowledge" fallacy?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 9:10 AM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 4:19 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 379 of 477 (564441)
06-10-2010 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Pauline
02-27-2010 11:47 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
The God of the Bible is perfect in a completely different sense than Adam was before he sinned.
But, Adam was made in God's image. Let's do a little premise, conclusion type argument, and you tell me where it goes wrong.
1) God is perfect.
2) Adam is made in God's image.
3) Adam is perfect.
4) Therefore, Adam is perfect in the same way God is perfect.
As an example. If you have a perfect square, you make another square in that square's image and it is also perfect. Then wouldn't they be perfect in the same way? If one's perfection is different form the other's, then one wasn't made in the image of the other, something was changed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Pauline, posted 02-27-2010 11:47 AM Pauline has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 3:51 PM Perdition has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3736 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 380 of 477 (564442)
06-10-2010 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by Perdition
06-10-2010 3:33 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Perdition writes:
But, Adam was made in God's image. Let's do a little premise, conclusion type argument, and you tell me where it goes wrong.
1) God is perfect.
2) Adam is made in God's image.
3) Adam is perfect.
4) Therefore, Adam is perfect in the same way God is perfect.
As an example. If you have a perfect square, you make another square in that square's image and it is also perfect. Then wouldn't they be perfect in the same way? If one's perfection is different form the other's, then one wasn't made in the image of the other, something was changed.
By your logic then, Adam is also...a clone of God. So we have God I and God II?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Perdition, posted 06-10-2010 3:33 PM Perdition has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3736 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


Message 381 of 477 (564447)
06-10-2010 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by AZPaul3
06-10-2010 10:23 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
I'm going to be as succinct as possible on this one because it is not possible to resolve the Bible's stance on slavery on a internet discussion with limited time.
The Bible doesn't ever advocate slavery.
The Bible does not demand slavery.
The Bible gives rules and regulations about treating slaves.
I said to Huntard to look at the big picture because, in light of the fall, the earth is currently being dominated by Satan. Satan is called the prince of this world. And this means he is playing with it left and right. Like a lot of other unfortunate happenings, slavery is also a result of the fall, compounded by satan's power to sway man's mind whichever direction he pleases. God gives guidelines for slave treatment in order to regulate and organize whats going on....I've wondered why He didn't just overpower satan and completely eradicate it from this world altogether (He could do this if He wanted)....and I battled with this question for years...and found a speculative answer from studying the big picture. In Rom 6, Paul uses slavery as a metaphor. We are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Unless there was slavery in the Bible like there really was in the world, we most probably would not understand the concept of being born again. Being born again is likened to being a slave to Christ. And someone who does not understand slavery is probably not going to understand being born again as well. The Bible is being honest by including slavery in its pages (not advocating it, just including it) because slavery has been present in human history. You can tell that the Bible is a real book, and not fairy tale because of things like this.
All this said, I do not advocate slavery. The slavery that exists among humans is cruel and harmful. And I'm not for it at all. But as a believer, when Paul says I gotta be a slave to Christ.,..I understand what he means and I totally agree with him. God is never going to ill-treat anybody...unlike men, which makes human-human slavery a disgusting thing.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by AZPaul3, posted 06-10-2010 10:23 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by AZPaul3, posted 06-10-2010 5:31 PM Pauline has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 382 of 477 (564469)
06-10-2010 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Pauline
06-10-2010 4:19 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
The Bible doesn't ever advocate slavery.
Neither does it condemn it.
The Bible does not demand slavery.
Neither does it enjoin it.
The Bible gives rules and regulations about treating slaves.
Which is tacit acceptance of the practice.
And yet homosexuality is a strict and vocal abomination.
Why the difference with the abomination of slavery?
Slavery was part and parcel to old middle east culture. It was as ubiquitous in society as today's cell phones. No one gave it much thought. It was just the natural order of things back then.
What this says is that the writers gave no thought to the institution as one would expect from an inspired divinity; at least one who had any objection to the practice.
Yes, indeed, this shows the bible to be a real book written by real men without divine inspiration. The alternative being that the divine inspiration came from a blood mongering schitzoid psychopath who apparently couldn't care less about the sufferings of his creation. I prefer the former.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Pauline, posted 06-10-2010 4:19 PM Pauline has not replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4776 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 383 of 477 (565682)
06-19-2010 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by hERICtic
06-07-2010 3:08 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house"
This is different from common slavery, in that the rules of war apply to the victor.
"and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband"
Wrong. Once again, a section of the Bible is misread. God CLEARLY states that if any man takes a wife of the defeated tribe, he cannot touch her for one MONTH. This is for the mourning process. When he goes to her, this means that she is finished mourning, and the man may be with her. God in NO way indicates rape.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by hERICtic, posted 06-07-2010 3:08 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by hERICtic, posted 06-19-2010 4:56 PM dennis780 has replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4776 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 384 of 477 (565684)
06-19-2010 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Huntard
06-09-2010 8:42 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"It was forced on the slaves. That's what I meant. Nobody was forced to take slaves, but you can't say that a slave was not forced into slavery.
Dr. Sing writes:
Slavery was neither forced nor advocated, it was only tolerated and allowed.
It was forced on the slaves. That's what I meant. Nobody was forced to take slaves, but you can't say that a slave was not forced into slavery."
Actually, you are wrong.
When Joshua was waging war on the land, the Gibeonites fooled Joshua by dressing in old clothes and telling him that they were from a far land, and that Joshua should make a pact with them. Joshua agreed, and because he gave them his word, God did not let Joshua destroy Gibeon. Instead, God commanded Joshua to take the Gibeonites as his slaves. People have been forced to take slaves. This can all be found starting in Joshua 9:3.
You should read your Bible next time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Huntard, posted 06-09-2010 8:42 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Huntard, posted 06-19-2010 9:28 AM dennis780 has replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4776 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 385 of 477 (565685)
06-19-2010 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Hawkins
06-10-2010 5:26 AM


"Or should you write some scientific reports to conclude that "void after death is proven"?"
Maybe us christians should ask you to show us some scientific reports on the "void before life"? Can you explain, what is a singularity again?
I find it amusing that you cut down Christianity because people have faith. Faith is the foundation of religion. Science is the foundation of evolution (or lack thereof). This is the big difference between us. Faith is required by us, evidence is required by you. Although there is evidence for christianity, and a young earth, it is not required to be a CHRISTIAN. Faith, and forgiveness is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Hawkins, posted 06-10-2010 5:26 AM Hawkins has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 386 of 477 (565691)
06-19-2010 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by dennis780
06-19-2010 7:46 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
dennis780 writes:
When Joshua was waging war on the land, the Gibeonites fooled Joshua by dressing in old clothes and telling him that they were from a far land, and that Joshua should make a pact with them. Joshua agreed, and because he gave them his word, God did not let Joshua destroy Gibeon. Instead, God commanded Joshua to take the Gibeonites as his slaves. People have been forced to take slaves. This can all be found starting in Joshua 9:3.
Well, thanks for supporting me in my stance that god condoned slavery. Here we even see him commanding it.
Thank you very much Denis! You just destroyed Dr. Sing's point completely. How nice of you.
So, here we even have god directly telling his subjects they must take slaves. Yet he is against such things. How very clear he makes that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by dennis780, posted 06-19-2010 7:46 AM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by dennis780, posted 06-21-2010 10:41 PM Huntard has replied

hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4516 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 387 of 477 (565715)
06-19-2010 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by dennis780
06-19-2010 7:32 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house"
This is different from common slavery, in that the rules of war apply to the victor.
"and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband"
Eric writes:
I'm not wrong. You're making excuses for the abominations your god condones. You conveniently ignored the entire scripture.
Here it is again.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
Eric writes:
Here we have god giving the losers to the victors.
And seest among the captives a beautiful woman,
Eric writes:
Usually armies do not attack with their women, so I'm inclined to believe its the Hebrews attacking another nation. So they invade and they see some beautiful women.
and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
Eric writes:
If you want to have sex with her....take her. Well, thats rape.
Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her , and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her,
Eric writes:
Do you really believe after their husbands/sons are murdered that the women are freely giving themselves to the invading forces? Notice what it states? If AFTER having sex (which yes, its forced) if the man does not want her....
thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."
Eric writes:
...then he can let her go.
Lets put this in perseptive.
I'll assume you are married. An invading force attacks. Whereever you are located, the battle is lost. A soldier decides to take your wife.
Do you really believe she willingly wants to have sex with him? Do you think she has a choice? After a month, the soldier still finds her attractive. He decides to keep her.
Do you find anything remotely wrong with any of this?
Does this sound like something a god would come up with or something mankind would come up with?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by dennis780, posted 06-19-2010 7:32 AM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by dennis780, posted 06-21-2010 11:06 PM hERICtic has replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4776 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 388 of 477 (565892)
06-21-2010 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by Huntard
06-19-2010 9:28 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"Well, thanks for supporting me in my stance that god condoned slavery. Here we even see him commanding it."
God was neutral on the subject of slavery, because it was not BAD. In fact, God wanted Joshua to kill Gibeon, along with the other tribes. God commands Joshua a number of times to leave no one alive, to kill the animals, and destroy the crops.
Lets put it into perspective for a moment. If you and I knew each other, and I lost everything in a fire. All my cattle, my house and crops...everything. Would you take me in at your house, and pay me to work for you? Because Biblically, this is slavery. Slaves were paid, allowd to have families, and leave with everything they came with.
"Yet he is against such things. How very clear he makes that.
dennis780 writes:
When Joshua was waging war on the land, the Gibeonites fooled Joshua by dressing in old clothes and telling him that they were from a far land, and that Joshua should make a pact with them. Joshua agreed, and because he gave them his word, God did not let Joshua destroy Gibeon. Instead, God commanded Joshua to take the Gibeonites as his slaves. People have been forced to take slaves. This can all be found starting in Joshua 9:3.
Well, thanks for supporting me in my stance that god condoned slavery. Here we even see him commanding it.
Thank you very much Denis! You just destroyed Dr. Sing's point completely. How nice of you.
So, here we even have god directly telling his subjects they must take slaves. Yet he is against such things. How very clear he makes that."
God is not against persecution of any kind. The bible teaches blessed are those that are persecuted in my name:
"11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
Matthew 5:11-12
Even if slavery were seen as evil or bad (and in was in the case of the israelites and the egyptions), God does not turn a blind eye, but loves you for loving and obeying him, no matter the conditions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by Huntard, posted 06-19-2010 9:28 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Huntard, posted 06-22-2010 2:59 AM dennis780 has replied

dennis780
Member (Idle past 4776 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 389 of 477 (565895)
06-21-2010 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by hERICtic
06-19-2010 4:56 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
[10] When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
[11] And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
[12] Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare [1] her nails;
[13] And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
[14] And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
I don't see rape anywhere her. However, if you read all of Dueteronomy 21, it outlines rules for wives, rights of first born, rules on capital punishment, etc.
This chapter is dealing with people in a position of power. Victors in battle, parents, etc. God is clearly outlining that your power was not to be abused. Although after a battle, the victors were allowed to place lots on goods and on the people, they were required to follow strict guidelines.
Women of the defeated may also consider going with the victors because most or all of their men would be dead. As well, these practices were of the old covenant. Jews were also allowed to have more than one wife in this time. This is considered wrong in the new convenant.
I believe it's also important to look at the shaving of the head, and paring of the nails. This more than likely represented, removing of the old life (since the women taken captive in this instance were not jewish), and changing into the new one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by hERICtic, posted 06-19-2010 4:56 PM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by DrJones*, posted 06-22-2010 12:09 AM dennis780 has replied
 Message 395 by hERICtic, posted 06-22-2010 7:07 AM dennis780 has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 390 of 477 (565900)
06-22-2010 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 389 by dennis780
06-21-2010 11:06 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
I don't see rape anywhere her.
[11] And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
[13] And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
It clearly says: if you see a woman you want, take her as your "wife", give her time to mourn, then fuck her. I don't see: wait till she agrees to fuck you, in there. I also don't see any command to wait for her consent to take her as the wife either.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by dennis780, posted 06-21-2010 11:06 PM dennis780 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by dennis780, posted 06-22-2010 1:12 AM DrJones* has replied

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