Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity

At what point was the convict interviewed about their religious beleifs? If they were asked as they entered the justice system, the statistics hold in your argument. But apologists I have debated have stated that the number is misleading bc most are immoral atheists that enter the prison and while there convert to a religion.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."During war, one may take a female against her will. If he dislikes her, he can let her go. If he likes her, shes his.Sure...theres nothing negative about this at all.

"Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house"
This is different from common slavery, in that the rules of war apply to the victor."and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her [i.e. rape her or engage in consensual sex], and be her husband" Here it is again.Deuteronomy 21:10-14: "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her , and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

Wow. So let me get this straight.Hebrews invade. A solider sees a woman he wants to have sex with. He wants to make her his wife.It clearly states what the soldier wants. Then it states if the soldier does not want her..he is to release her.This is rape and slavery.It does not say the women can refuse to go. It does not say she is asked permission. It does not say she can leave if SHE doesnt like him. It states the opposite.Now you ignored my previous question.You invade a land. You kill the husbands and sons of the women.Do you really believe a woman then wants you to be her husband? Do you really think the woman FREELY decided they want to be with you?Think about this honestly.

This is simple apologetics. You do not see a word, so you pretend the story line does not say what its actually stating.Here is another example.(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings — Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba — died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.Rape is nowhere mentioned. Why do you think they kept the virgins? Ignore for a moment that CHILDREN were wiped out, not even in the heat of battle. After they were captured.Why do you think they kept the virgins? Do you believe the virgins WILLINGLY gave themsevles up to the Hebrews? Do you think they had any choice?(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.Notice it states FORCED labor. This is slavery. Why do you think god wanted the women alive? Do you think they had any choice? Do you think perhaps, just perhaps they were forced into sex?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)What do you think these "damsels" are for?Regardless if these are rules for war, these acts of rape are accetped. These are acts selfish cold hearted man would come up with. Not a loving all powerful god. If you wish to believe your god did come up with these concepts and rules, he is just as an abomination as man.

I cannot believe (ok, part of me can) that you actually compared raising your son as being equal to taking a man captive and forcing him to do work.

"It clearly states what the soldier wants. Then it states if the soldier does not want her..he is to release her."
Yes. The victorious tribe cast lots on any spoils, being it women, gold, land, etc. No denying that."This is rape and slavery."The other guy debating is intending to imply rape, but I answered this in my previous post. And not slavery, since if the man does not want to marry her, she is to go free, and cannot be sold. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------"You invade a land. You kill the husbands and sons of the women."This depends on the story you are refering to in the Bible. Killing only the men was not always the case. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Do you really believe a woman then wants you to be her husband?"Under the old covenant, it would be irrelevant. After her period of mourning, I would be entitled to marry her if I cast a lot for her. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------"Think about this honestly."Honestly, I think it's brutal. But I'm not a soldier, nor do I live under the old covenant. As well, I can't speak to the state of mind of the women or the soldiers.

I am using "slavery" as per described in the OT.Were those "taken" allowed to leave or where they forced to stay and work?Were the Hebrews slaves of the Egyptians? Did they have a choice in the matter?Did women "taken" as spoils of war have a choice?

Great point. But I am assuming that Artemis is a Christian and fully accepting that the stories are true. Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

hERICtic writes:
I am using "slavery" as per described in the OT.
Were those "taken" allowed to leave or where they forced to stay and work?Were the Hebrews slaves of the Egyptians? Did they have a choice in the matter?Did women "taken" as spoils of war have a choice? Sorry I didnt get back to you sooner. I didnt know you reponded. I'm unsure how I missed it when we get emails that alert us to a response.How are they not specific? A few on this thread have stated the god does not condone slavery. I asked if they were forced to stay and work? I think that defines slavery.I asked about the Hebrews being slaves bc I wanted to compare (I believe it was Denis I was debating) if his defintion of slavery fit that description.I asked if the women has a choice in the matter regarding being taken as spoils of war.I think these are pretty specific questions that do have answers...which you answered. So you lost me here. You say they're unanswerable...then answered them in detail.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So its slavery. Plain and simple. They were TAKEN and FORCED to stay for a time period.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you admit they were taken by force. It also states they were forced to have sex.So you're disagreewing with Denis who stated there was never any slavery condoned by god.Now the actions of forcing women to marry and have sex....even if you want to hide behind the excuse that it was for their benefit..does this sound like something an all powerful god would come up with or manind? Do you think perhaps an all powerful god (we'll use your reasoning about starving to death) could have somehow fed them without the women being forced as slaves and raped?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing. A few states god does not condone rape. I merely pointed out that he did.

HericTIC writes:
So its slavery. Plain and simple. They were TAKEN and FORCED to stay for a time period. But we are not talking about POW's. Those are people taken in time of war and released following the war.The Bible has god commanding the Hebrews to invade a land, kill all the men and TAKE the women.Please explain how they are the same.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------HERICTIC writes:
It also states they were forced to have sex.So you're disagreeing with Denis who stated there was never any slavery condoned by god Well you lost me. I was originally debating Denis who stated that the Bible does not condone rape or slavery."When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."In this verse, unlike a few others, god does not command the Hebrews to kill everyone. But god does command that if the Hebrews take captives, they should take any women they find pleasing. Force her to their home. Force sex upon her. Denis tried to make it out that she was willing. Obviously that is not the case. Here is the kicker. After bringing her home, raping her...if he does not like her, force her out.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------herictic writes:
Now the actions of forcing women to marry and have sex....even if you want to hide behind the excuse that it was for their benefit..does this sound like something an all powerful god would come up with or manind? Do you think perhaps an all powerful god (we'll use your reasoning about starving to death) could have somehow fed them without the women being forced as slaves and raped? What I am trying to convey (obviously poorly) is that the actions god takes throughout scripture never seem to back up the assertion he is all wise and knowing. In other words, the Hebrews claim god "said"...and do X. Yet the actions are obviously of man, attributing it to their god.You made a comment earlier. After the Hebrews wipe out the men, they "could" take the women so that they didnt starve to death.Think about it. Obviously the women do not wish to be taken. Their husbands, friends, sons were just killed.Yet I can understand how man could come up with such a concept to at least appear somewhat humane.But an all knowing god? He could create many miraculous scenarios that could feed the women, without them being taken.Im just saying, the Bible makes god out to be very naive, barbaric and unjust.

But we are not talking about POW's. Those are people taken in time of war and released following the war.
The Bible has god commanding the Hebrews to invade a land, kill all the men and TAKE the women.Please explain how they are the same. I must have missed it. Please show me how POW's, which are captured during war, held captive and released after the war is over the same as forcing woman to have sex, marrying their captors then cast aside when their "husbands" no longer wants them the same.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion." Im sorry...but I've been debating for quite a few years. Its not that one "sees' it differently, its one twisting scripture bc they cannot accept it for what it states. It clearly states the following:1) Among the captives, if you see a woman take her. Notice there isnt a choice involved.
2) She is to become the captors wife. Notice she does not have a choice.
3) After she is a wife, let her mourn for a month. Then have sex with her. Notice a choice is still not offered.
4) The very last verse states she was under compulsion. This means forced.The only way anyone can see it otherwise would be to lie. Plain and simple. Or has a reading comprehension problem.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Which is my point. They dont matter according to this loving god! LOL! I'm sorry...but YOURE making this debate clear. You were the one who said anyone who isnt a Jew doesnt matter! Which is the point. There is one god today according to Christianity. Who loves all mankind. Yet according to the OT, and your words, that isnt the case. God behaves exactly like the Hebrews. An all knowing, all powerful god would have many scenarios to help and/or solve problems. But that isnt the case. He acts like man.Why? Bc its man doing the actions, attributing them to their god.