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Author Topic:   Problems with evolution? Submit your questions.
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 397 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 61 of 752 (566268)
06-23-2010 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:40 PM


Re: Question
How does the mutation or natural selection produce new information?
By producing new information.
This is the reason why people wanted you to be more precise in your definition.
Do you have an empirical example of a code or language that occurs naturally?
Yeah, the human genome.
I can beg the question just as much as you can. Bite me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 3:40 PM ICANT has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 397 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 62 of 752 (566271)
06-23-2010 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ICANT
06-23-2010 2:05 PM


Re: Question
My question was where does all this information come from?
If evolution produces this information, how does it produce it?
By selection and drift acting on random mutations, recombination, lateral gene transfer, and so forth.
You may disagree with the answer that scientists give to your question, but don't go around pretending that you don't know what their answer is. You know perfectly well.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 397 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 63 of 752 (566272)
06-23-2010 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ICANT
06-23-2010 2:05 PM


Re: Question
Is there anyway that information can begin to exist without being created?
Well, that depends what you mean by "created".
If you mean "caused to begin to exist", then the answer is NO.
If you mean "poofed into existence out of nothing by an invisible magical fairy in the sky who doesn't actually exist", then the answer is YES.

This message is a reply to:
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ICANT
Member (Idle past 140 days)
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 64 of 752 (566276)
06-23-2010 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Coragyps
06-23-2010 3:47 PM


Re: Question
Hi Coragyps,
Coragyps writes:
Yup. The DNA in the nuclei of the cells (excluding red blood cells) in my body. You have a couple of trillion examples of your own.
My parents produced my DNA I don't know where you got yours from.
I would assume your parents.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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 Message 54 by Coragyps, posted 06-23-2010 3:47 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-24-2010 2:10 AM ICANT has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1368 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 65 of 752 (566280)
06-24-2010 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
06-22-2010 3:29 PM


Re: Question
I take information to be a message with a sender that is responsible for the information and a receiver.
The information is any message the sender chooses to compose.
I know this won't meet your approval but so what?
Actually, I'm delighted with that definition. It's more than I've ever gotten out of any other creo. Of course, it conclusively refutes your claim that it takes information to make DNA, or even that DNA contains information. DNA came into existence through a natural combination of various molecules. The genetic material in DNA changes over time because of errors in the replication process and mutations. Thus, there is no sender or receiver.
QED.
Any other toughies?
Edited by subbie, : Just cuz

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 397 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 66 of 752 (566292)
06-24-2010 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by ICANT
06-23-2010 11:30 PM


Re: Question
My parents produced my DNA I don't know where you got yours from.
You are to my knowledge the first creationist honest enough to admit that information comes from natural causes rather than an invisible fairy who lives in the sky.
I salute you.

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 Message 64 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2010 11:30 PM ICANT has not replied

Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003


(1)
Message 67 of 752 (566308)
06-24-2010 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by ICANT
06-23-2010 3:32 PM


Re: Question
What difference does it make what is the sender?
What difference does it make what is the receiver?
What difference does it make what the message is?
Er, it's your definition, if you don't know what these things are with respect to biological systems, how can we apply it to them?
Information as we know it comes from a mind.
Bullshit. There's information all around us that doesn't come from minds. Look out the window, up at the sky - do you really think you receive no information about the weather? No information about the time of day?

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Peg
Member (Idle past 5042 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 68 of 752 (567164)
06-29-2010 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by SwampDonkey
06-20-2010 2:51 AM


I'd just like to know how the seeds that grow into all sorts of plants and trees evolved. What came first, the seed or the tree/plant?
(sorry if its already been asked, im coming in late)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by crashfrog, posted 06-29-2010 8:48 PM Peg has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1580 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 69 of 752 (567166)
06-29-2010 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Peg
06-29-2010 8:42 PM


What came first, the seed or the tree/plant?
The seed, which grew from a plant that itself originally grew from a spore, some time during the Devonian era.
As seeds are a more effective way to disperse offspring than spores, it's not surprising that the descendants of this first organism came to dominate the kingdom of plants. But plants which reproduce by spores instead of seeds are still with us, and they represent the descendants of some of the first terrestrial, vascular plants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Peg, posted 06-29-2010 8:42 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Peg, posted 06-29-2010 9:01 PM crashfrog has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 5042 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 70 of 752 (567168)
06-29-2010 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by crashfrog
06-29-2010 8:48 PM


crashfrog writes:
The seed, which grew from a plant that itself originally grew from a spore, some time during the Devonian era.
so the seed came first and it grew from a plant which grew from a spore!
That makes no sense at all. If the seed grows from a plant, then the plant came first
then again, the plant came from a spore so the spore came first....hence a spore produced a plant which produced seed.
So that takes us to the spore..... how did the spore evolve and from what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by crashfrog, posted 06-29-2010 8:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by crashfrog, posted 06-29-2010 9:19 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 72 by bluescat48, posted 06-29-2010 11:06 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 73 by Taq, posted 06-30-2010 12:23 AM Peg has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1580 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 71 of 752 (567170)
06-29-2010 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Peg
06-29-2010 9:01 PM


That makes no sense at all. If the seed grows from a plant, then the plant came first
If you like. Sure, the plant came first.
So that takes us to the spore...
Right, the spore which came from a spore-bearing plant, like today's ferns. What did ferns evolve from? The first terrestrial, vascular plants. What did those evolve from? Vascular plants that grew in the sea, like seaweeds. What did those evolve from? Sea algaes that lived in multicellular colonies.
What did those evolve from? Sea algaes that lived unicellularly. Those? Cyanobacteria. (I'm skipping over a lot of steps and about half a billion years.) Cyanobacteria evolved from chemosynthetic bacteria living at sea floor vents, probably. Those evolved from some of the first living things, ever. That takes us all the way back to LUCA, the cenacestor, the organism who was the common ancestor of all species of life on Earth, approximately 3.8 billion years before the present day.
how did the spore evolve and from what?
If the sense you're getting is that I'm playing a game of this evolved from that, and that from this other, and that from something yet older.... and so on, and you're wondering "ok but where does that all end?", well, it ends at the beginning - with the Last Universal Common Ancestor (LUCA), because all living things on Earth are descended, ultimately, from a single living organism that lived almost 4 billion years ago.
It's pretty fuckin' sweet, if you ask me.

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4303 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 72 of 752 (567179)
06-29-2010 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Peg
06-29-2010 9:01 PM


so the seed came first and it grew from a plant which grew from a spore!
That makes no sense at all. If the seed grows from a plant, then the plant came first
then again, the plant came from a spore so the spore came first....hence a spore produced a plant which produced seed.
So that takes us to the spore..... how did the spore evolve and from what?
You appear to be reasoning that this occurred in 1 generation.
This occurred over millions of years, thousands, if not millions of generations. Evolution does not occur as, the fundie creos try to reason that it has to occur at once, but in stages taking numerous generations. The spore plant didn't suddenly produce a seed plant, but over generations the spore bearing plants became seed plants.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10195
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 73 of 752 (567187)
06-30-2010 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Peg
06-29-2010 9:01 PM


so the seed came first and it grew from a plant which grew from a spore!
That makes no sense at all. If the seed grows from a plant, then the plant came first
then again, the plant came from a spore so the spore came first....hence a spore produced a plant which produced seed.
So that takes us to the spore..... how did the spore evolve and from what?
Thousands of years ago no one spoke french. Now there are millions of people who speak french. How could this happen? Who did the first french speaker talk to?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Peg, posted 06-29-2010 9:01 PM Peg has not replied

Tram law
Member (Idle past 4818 days)
Posts: 283
From: Weed, California, USA
Joined: 08-15-2010


Message 74 of 752 (574977)
08-18-2010 4:20 PM


Does DNA disprove evolution?
If it can't show that we have a common ancestor?
If it can't be mapped all the way back to the time when life first began?
What is the DNA evidence to support or disprove evolution?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 77 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-18-2010 9:26 PM Tram law has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2408 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 75 of 752 (574983)
08-18-2010 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tram law
08-18-2010 4:20 PM


Tram law writes:
Does DNA disprove evolution?
No, in fact it is strong evidence for it.
If it can't show that we have a common ancestor?
But it does show that. Check out ERV's or human chromosome 2 (I'm assuming you're talking about humans and other apes here).
f it can't be mapped all the way back to the time when life first began?
What do you mean with this?
What is the DNA evidence to support or disprove evolution?
Plenty, start here

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