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Author Topic:   Straightforward, hard-to-answer-questions about the Bible/Christianity
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 402 of 477 (566005)
06-22-2010 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by hERICtic
06-22-2010 10:53 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
3 1. What this this have to do with Christianity or Jesus?
2. You cannot equate slavery with what you value slavery to be, you should look to see what slavery meant in that time and in this circumstance. Many cultures from ancient israelites to celts, to native americans practiced slavery, and while it was the same word it meant very different things in each culture, and was used in a different context in each culture.
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : i cant spell for shit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by hERICtic, posted 06-22-2010 10:53 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by hERICtic, posted 06-22-2010 1:44 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 407 of 477 (567333)
06-30-2010 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Phage0070
06-23-2010 12:29 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
hERICtic writes:
I am using "slavery" as per described in the OT.
Were those "taken" allowed to leave or where they forced to stay and work?
Were the Hebrews slaves of the Egyptians? Did they have a choice in the matter?
Did women "taken" as spoils of war have a choice?
You are asking questions that are not specific, nor that answerable, are they rhtorical?
but I will bite anyway. Those taken may have been allowed to leave eventually, often times indetered servitude and slavery were equated to be the same thing, its hard to say as it is not very clear.
I think the hebrews more than likey were slaves in some form of the Egyptians, though contrary to popular presentation slaves could not have built the great pyramids, that was obviously completed by extremely skilled labor.
Did women taken have a choice? Probably not, but thier other option was probably starving to death, I am unsure that they may have wanted it another way. Native Americans used this method as well, and intime the captured were integrated into the tribe as fully functioning memebers.
You have still failed to answer my question of what does this OT stuff have to do with Jesus, and him dying for our sins.
hERICtic writes:
Great point. But I am assuming that Artemis is a Christian and fully accepting that the stories are true.
Well I am Roman Catholic. Its hard to admit christian anymore with what I know about these protestant philosophies. Sola scriptura is not part of my belief if that what you are assuming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Phage0070, posted 06-23-2010 12:29 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Phage0070, posted 06-30-2010 11:13 PM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 422 by hERICtic, posted 07-02-2010 6:38 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 409 of 477 (567465)
07-01-2010 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by Phage0070
06-30-2010 11:13 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Phage0070 writes:
I think you replied to the wrong message since you don't quote my post anywhere, but I will attempt to reply in the vein of your inquiry.
oops. I totally did, i meant to respond to herictic. blonde moment.
If God orders rape or slavery, for any period of time, he is responsible for those acts.
If God's followers have free will then God is free from blame as his followers have the option to disobey him as they do through sin every hour of every day.
Why do you think they were slaves in some form? What evidence do you have in support of this belief?
I like the Moses story. Evidence is unesscessary for belief.
quote:
We can't have full knowledge all at once. We must start by believing; then afterwards we may be led on to master the evidence for ourselves-- Thomas Aquinas, 13th century
An omnipotent entity cannot avoid responsibility.
Free will is the avoidance to resposibility. You are not the 1st nor tha last to try and catch the All Mighty, in something like that. This debate has been going on for 1500+ years.
If the Old Testament God is a bloodthirsty, rage-filled, despicable monster of a deity who cares only for the subservience of a single tribe of humans and even less for everyone else... so is Jesus.
Nope. That is incorrect.
Say, do you consider the Pope as being infallible? Thats always good for a laugh.
Its obvious that one you either cannot comprehend the infallible doctrine, or you are not being serious, and just try to make a joke, so I'll plead the 5th on this one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Phage0070, posted 06-30-2010 11:13 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Theodoric, posted 07-01-2010 12:40 PM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 420 by Phage0070, posted 07-02-2010 12:10 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 411 of 477 (567576)
07-01-2010 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Theodoric
07-01-2010 12:40 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
I am not an apologetic, i was merely stating my beliefs.
I don't need evidence, but I will pray that you can find whatever you need, for your own beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Theodoric, posted 07-01-2010 12:40 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Theodoric, posted 07-01-2010 6:25 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 413 of 477 (567579)
07-01-2010 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Theodoric
07-01-2010 6:25 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
God is not in the sky.
I already explained that it is not knowledge but belief, I am sorry you cannot understand the difference, and I must rephrase it over and over again.
I don't kow what your agenda is, but your strawmen are fairly weak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Theodoric, posted 07-01-2010 6:25 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Theodoric, posted 07-01-2010 7:18 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 415 of 477 (567588)
07-01-2010 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Theodoric
07-01-2010 7:18 PM


Lots of straw in Wisconsin
What is the strawman
just about everything you say that I am saying, when I am saying nothing of the sort. you are choosing what you want me to say so that you can argue against my position (that you just made up). Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought that was a strawman.
You seem to expect others to jsut accept what you say without question.
finally you add a "seem" to your thoughts rather than straight up telling me my position, like in your previous posts today. but no i do not.
You think your belief and faith gives you some sort of insight that we should all accept unquestioningly.
oh dangit there you go again. How much straw do you have over there in Wisconsin? I never said anything of the sort, and explained myself twice already, lulz.
You ahve not given any reasoning for claiming someone is wrong all you said was they are wrong.
I would prefer to answer Phage0070, on my reasons and claims, because so far I can tell that you will just twist anything that I say into what you want me to be saying.
Even apologetics gives a reason.
I am not an apologetic (but you would know this if you read my earlier post).
Usually lame reasons but reason nontheless.
are they as lame as your strawmen?
Unless you are willing to back up your statements with reason no one here is going to take you seriously
LULZ, like I take you and your strawmanning seriously?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Theodoric, posted 07-01-2010 7:18 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by Theodoric, posted 07-01-2010 8:20 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 418 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-01-2010 9:14 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 427 of 477 (567761)
07-02-2010 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by Phage0070
07-02-2010 12:10 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Do you think God will reward people for obeying his unethical orders?
LOL, I aint falling for that one. for the 3rd time I am not an apologetic, I do not have to explain anything. I really think the OT, is not that important, for without the NT there would be no christianity, and we'd be having the debate if Ragnarok would ever happen or not.
If I can spin you a more attractive story than that of Moses, would you believe it considering evidence is unnecessary?
the Walt Disney company did a pretty good Moses and Exodus story a few years back. it had songs, was entertaining (i doubt you could do a better job than Disney, no offense), but in that story Jew were salves and building the pyramids, which I found to be unbelieveable.
Also, can you name another area of your life which you find evidence unnecessary for belief other than religious faith?
sure: Plate Tectonics, the Statistical understanding of the 4th deminsion, and Linear Regression Model, I believe these things but they make no sense to me, i just had to memorize what my professors wanted me to regurgitate for the exams, but I did not "learn" it.
another examples is Personal desktop computers, how does all this stuff work? I think its magic. I just plug it in and go, I have no clue what factors into how it works, and i don't care.
There is four. as a geographer I must understand the earth, and use a lot of statistical models, with PCs (thank God, no offense to ppl like thoedoric who are offended by thtat statment, for PCs, all this math would be hard otherwise).
For me to stand by and do nothing makes me to some extent morally culpable in that rape.
no it doesn't, you could just be minding your own business, maybe she should CCW. you can put that on me that I have to somehow intervene, as it is my duty.
Please elaborate. Do you not consider them part of the same entity, or that they are separate faces which don't share the same traits?
I will a bit cause i said I would and you are not an ass about this like the other d00d is.
Yes and no. the son and the father are part of the same one diety, but different faces of that diety. If your father commits a crime, before you are born, you are not guilty of the same crime. Jesus was like God2.0, the new peaceful version, the evangelizing version, the forgiving version, the non jew version. Its really difficult to explain, I am not a someone who got his degree in this stuff. Im just a common follower in this faith. basically it seems you think the NT god and the OT god are the same, and they are, but you think that the son fo the OT god who is also in the NT is the same as the father in nature and wrath and all that, but he is not in my opinion, then there are these talking heads on the side telling me i have no evidence, even though neither of us have much of anything more than opinions, its just a rediculous topic.
Here is the punchline: If God never changes his mind but upholds the edicts of the Pope in heaven, what happens when a Pope changes his mind, or different Pope's contradict each other?
as if I am the only one with a search engine aroung here.
The Infallibility doctrine has been used 7 times inthe 2000 year history of the church. The idea was 1st brought up in 1870, and has been used once since then (the other 6 instances have been retroactively discussed). there has not been an infallible proclimation in 60 years. If you really cared to know this you would have looked it up.
But when it comes from someone that does not know me at all and knows I am an atheist, like this condescending buffoon, I take great offense. [/qs]
you started with the strawman, now its straight to Ad hominem. How can I know you are and athiest at the same time that I do not know you at all. you make no snese at all. and you are a huge pussy for getting offended by that.
because he seems to be very sarcastic about it.
I am not a professional writer, there is no extra meaning in my words, if you read into them and assume my meaning, past what i typed then that is your mistake. if i put something up that is sarcastic, I will say so.
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Phage0070, posted 07-02-2010 12:10 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Theodoric, posted 07-02-2010 2:04 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 430 by Phage0070, posted 07-02-2010 5:11 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 432 of 477 (567847)
07-02-2010 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Phage0070
07-02-2010 5:11 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Theodoric writes:
You truly don't get it. This is the same sactimonious, sarcastic bullshit that makes it offensive when you tell people like me that you will pray for them.
I just prefaced it with no offense, which tells me you are just looking for a fight, you are so offended by the fact that people are not all athiests like you claim to be that you cannot stand it. can somebody be anymore bigoted?
First of all you still have not explained why asking you to back your statements is any sort of strawman. I asked for you to show me the strawman and all you do is make another claim that my posts are nothing but strawmen. But amazingly no examples.
every response to anything I say is a twisted corrupts of what I said. so go back to your last say 4 responses to me, its pretty much all you have to say to me.
Secondly, that I told you clearly that I felt your praying for me is offensive should be more than enough for you to know you should let the subject drop. Do you not expect people to stop being offensive when you let them know you are offended.
who is on the fucking high horse now? I don't get offended by stupid shit, since you called me a buffoon you obviouly think my shit is stupid too. Wow does anyone take this guy seriously?
Are you growing a pearl?
Where is the ad hominem ?
quote:
this condescending buffoon
And now you resort to real name calling. Boy you sure know how to intimidate people in a debate don't you. Well I'll tell you what, how about i say things you find offensive and call you names for pointing it out. Does that sound fair? Who are you to determine what is offensive to me? I told you I was offended by your sarcastic offer to "pray for me", that should be all that needs to be said. But instead you go the "pussy" route. I guess my comments to Hyro are amply justified now.
nothing is fair about you, its all fallacy, i stopped being serious with you and your nonsense after your 1st retard post, i'm just dicking around with some overly sensetive douchebag right now.
Like another poster stated that probably is not a very good way to convince people of the rightness and glory of christianity.
I am not evangelising, we don't want people like you.
So how about we drop this and maybe you can quit calling me names. I know you will never answer my original request for an explanation or reasoning for your statement. I really never expected you would. If you need to resort to personal attacks, by all means, please continue. I expect nothing less.
you started it, and after i retaliate, you want to give up, roflmfao! vajayjay indeed.
Phage0700 writes:
Without the Old Testament there wouldn't be a Christianity either. Also, two answers for your denial of apologetics:
I did not deny apologetics, I just said that I was not one.
phage0700 writes:
I mean a better deal, not presentation value. Do you pick your unevidenced beliefs based on how much you would personally like them to be true?
heck yes doesn't everyone?
I find it hard to believe that a geographer could have graduated any respectable university without at least a cursory understanding of the plate tectonics model, but thats quite off topic.
I get it but I do not think its correct. I learned what they wanted me to, played thier game, to get my degree, but I don't buy into it,
Evidence for these concepts was provided. Is there anything else which you believed where there was no evidence?
Barack Hussien Obama was born in the United States (SARCASM), lol.
Wow. What a despicable human being. Jesus wasn't kidding when he said Christians had a lot to learn from the parable of the Good Samaritan.
hey fuck you too
How is this relevant to the question? A problem like this doctrine becomes no less a problem by being old.
there is no problem with the doctrine. if so what is it? you really have not said anything other making a snide comment about it.
As for the rest, you will need to reply to a post from HERICTIC for him to get a message, and to aid the post structure.
yeah i haven't figured out how to do that, I just got back after being gone for a while and i forgot how to do everythign on this site.
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Phage0070, posted 07-02-2010 5:11 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by Phage0070, posted 07-02-2010 6:57 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 436 by Theodoric, posted 07-02-2010 8:09 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 433 of 477 (567849)
07-02-2010 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by hERICtic
07-02-2010 6:38 AM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
hERICtic writes:
Sorry I didnt get back to you sooner. I didnt know you reponded. I'm unsure how I missed it when we get emails that alert us to a response.
yeah i messed up, and replied to the wrong guy, sorry.
HericTIC writes:
So its slavery. Plain and simple. They were TAKEN and FORCED to stay for a time period.
are POWs and Prisoners slaves. Are felons in the penitentery, slaves? as these people are taken and forced to stay for a time period, some for the rest of thier lives? is slavery legal today across the globe? with your definition here it is.
HERICTIC writes:
It also states they were forced to have sex.
So you're disagreewing with Denis who stated there was never any slavery condoned by god
"it states" im not sure what it is but okay. I'd like to see it, and read it.
I definately disagree with Denis if that is in fact what he stated. BTW it's God. And it definately appears that God condoned slavery, or at least awknowledge its existence, without comdeming it. I'm not a bible scholar, or even a bible reader that is for protestants.
herictic writes:
Now the actions of forcing women to marry and have sex....even if you want to hide behind the excuse that it was for their benefit..does this sound like something an all powerful god would come up with or manind? Do you think perhaps an all powerful god (we'll use your reasoning about starving to death) could have somehow fed them without the women being forced as slaves and raped?
Im not sure what Manind is im sure its probably a typo, but i cant figure out what you are asking.
yeah perhaps.
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by hERICtic, posted 07-02-2010 6:38 AM hERICtic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by hERICtic, posted 07-03-2010 3:02 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 440 of 477 (568539)
07-06-2010 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by hERICtic
07-03-2010 3:02 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
But we are not talking about POW's. Those are people taken in time of war and released following the war.
The Bible has god commanding the Hebrews to invade a land, kill all the men and TAKE the women.
Please explain how they are the same.
I thought I just did.
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
In this verse, unlike a few others, god does not command the Hebrews to kill everyone. But god does command that if the Hebrews take captives, they should take any women they find pleasing. Force her to their home. Force sex upon her. Denis tried to make it out that she was willing. Obviously that is not the case. Here is the kicker. After bringing her home, raping her...if he does not like her, force her out.
well you read it one way and Denis reads it another, its obvious that neither of you can convince the other to see it "your" way. Sounds like a difference of opinion, I can see it either way, if it makes you feel better i can take your side, since Denis is rather quiet on here.
But an all knowing god? He could create many miraculous scenarios that could feed the women, without them being taken.
Im just saying, the Bible makes god out to be very naive, barbaric and unjust.
but why would God? This is the one God of the Hebrews, these "peoeple" are probably gentiles/pagans/infedels and do not really matter. making these women hebrew is really doing them a favor in the long run.
the rules of God in the OT apply only to the Hebrews, thier people. Its easy for me to see why nobody likes the Jews, you are helping make that debate clear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by hERICtic, posted 07-03-2010 3:02 PM hERICtic has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by Theodoric, posted 07-06-2010 1:58 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 444 of 477 (568751)
07-14-2010 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 441 by Theodoric
07-06-2010 1:58 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
"people of the book" has nothing to do with what you just tried to use it in. stick to your athiesm as your knowledge of religions is sub-par.
People of the book is a an english translation of an Arabic phrase, meant to describe non muslims who had a literary source for thier religion (Zoroastrians, Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc.), though the Qur'an also states this, in the Qur' an only Jews and Christians are mentioned.
this nobody is the the plethora of cultures throughout history who have not been kind to the Jews and thier ideas of being the most superior people on earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 441 by Theodoric, posted 07-06-2010 1:58 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Theodoric, posted 07-14-2010 8:57 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 446 of 477 (569164)
07-20-2010 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Theodoric
07-14-2010 8:57 PM


Re: Why & how did Jesus have to die for our sins?
Yes I misspoke. I poster with any integrity would have pointed it out and not been a total ass about it.
lulz, d00d you are a total ass about everything, i say, so STFU and stop crying about everything.
you get so offended so fast about everything, and then you switch from logic to name calling in the drop of a hat. you were wrong but i am an ass for pointing your ignorance out, when you are hostile about everything. lolololololol you are hilarious.
But still you have given no reason for your comment other than antisemitism.
why does name calling and character assasination rank so high on your list of go to tactics, when some one says something you disagree with? I think it is because you cannot logically defend your point, and use the tactics of the the left, in any debate you come across. Anything I say that you dont like and the next thing you type is a personal attack.
So it is the jews fault that there were progroms and the holocaust?
why limit the vast history of the hebrews to the last 100 years? their enemies stretch back to the bronze age. Would you call the Egyptians antisemitic, how about the Assyrians, or the Babylonians, or the Romans? Is anyone in any culture or society (in the past 4000 years) who is not for israel, automatically a racist antisemite? I think a little more diplomacy on thier end could have helped them a bit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Theodoric, posted 07-14-2010 8:57 PM Theodoric has not replied

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