Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8898 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-25-2019 6:47 PM
23 online now:
DrJones*, JonF, kjsimons, Percy (Admin), Tangle, Tanypteryx (6 members, 17 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,643 Year: 3,680/19,786 Month: 675/1,087 Week: 44/221 Day: 15/29 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
34Next
Author Topic:   Proven phenomena?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 51 (567958)
07-03-2010 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Theodoric
07-03-2010 11:29 AM


Re: Seems that most agree with me
Theodoric writes:

I was really hoping some of the "believers" would join this thread and tell us why some of theses phenomena are "unexplained". It seems there either is no one that feels that way other than Practical Prodigy, or they are not confident in their beliefs.
Hopefully Practical Prodigy will join us and develop at least some of these so we can at least see what he was talking about and what he meant.

Uh...umm... my "believer" response evidently went straight through you registering nothing in the proverbial bellfry to your liking.

Edited by Buzsaw, : careless spelling check

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Theodoric, posted 07-03-2010 11:29 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 07-03-2010 2:38 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 17 of 51 (567959)
07-03-2010 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
07-03-2010 2:32 PM


Re: Seems that most agree with me
You did not address anything on the list. The things you brought up were just anecdotes and things no one else seems to have seen or believe but you. These things you mention do not qualify as phenomena, they qualify as stories nothing more.

Your "contribution" is no more of the continuation of the claim that unless you are a believer you cannot see it. Therefore, I would have to say it does not exist. except maybe in your head. If there is no evidence it isn't.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 07-03-2010 2:32 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 07-03-2010 3:37 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 51 (567963)
07-03-2010 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phage0070
07-03-2010 9:33 AM


Re: Limitations of Science?
Phage.... writes:

This is false. The SETI project has it *right in the acronym* that it is searching for intelligence other than that of earth humans. God need only radio in for science to find him.

Alas, Phage. That's not how creating designers operate; foolishly assigning the designed object created the role of dictating to the creator the role/purpose of the object created/designed.

Also, science certainly can study potentially fulfilled biblical prophecy. Science is a method that anyone passingly familiar with the method can perform (with varying degrees of quality of course). Science isn't generally applied toward this end as believers don't like the results.

Please cite one example of the above.

See, how would you distinguish this from illusion? If something is only distinguishable from your point of view, why do you consider it likely that your particular point of view most represents the truth?

By the same token, how would you distinguist this from illusion? Why do you consider it likely that your particular p.o.v. most represents the truth?

Buzsaw writes:
...encountered a wicca tribal woman who controlled the people to the extent that the missionaries could not penetrate the people until the power of God prevailed after fasting and prayer by the missionaries.

How is this unexplainable? A tribe following a different religion is somewhat resistant to a different religion, with one woman being especially influential and resistant (this would be expected for any other religion, right?). After working for a while the missionaries begin to make inroads, coincidentally while performing various religious fasts and prayer. The link between the prayer/fasting and the inroads is assumed primarily through confirmation bias rather than actual evidence of a causal link.

In this phenominal case, after a three day fast, when encountered by the missionary, the wicca woman fell dead in the assembly of the tribe. After questioning the locals, it was determined that the woman was a couple of decades older than humans should live. It was concluded that she was so totally empowered by the demons that when they departed, the shell/body of the woman collapsed lifeless. I attended this missionary meeting at a Christian & Missianary Alliance evening service back in the 1960s or so when he was home on furlough.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phage0070, posted 07-03-2010 9:33 AM Phage0070 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phage0070, posted 07-03-2010 3:54 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 22 by ZenMonkey, posted 07-03-2010 4:37 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 51 (567966)
07-03-2010 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Theodoric
07-03-2010 2:38 PM


Re: Seems that most agree with me
Theodoric writes:

You did not address anything on the list.

I responded to Percy's on topic question. Apparently all you want from believers is what you think you are able to effectively counter.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 07-03-2010 2:38 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 07-03-2010 3:58 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 51 (567968)
07-03-2010 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
07-03-2010 3:05 PM


Re: Limitations of Science?
Buzsaw writes:

That's not how creating designers operate;

How would you know?

Buzsaw writes:

foolishly assigning the designed object created the role of dictating to the creator the role/purpose of the object created/designed.

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Seriously though, you claimed that science didn't study the possible "existence of higher intelligence in the universe than that of earth humans". I pointed out that it does.

Buzsaw writes:

Please cite one example of the above.

Ok. Consider Matthew 24:29-34; have the stars fallen out of the sky and a simultaneous lunar and solar eclipse occurred in the span of the generation to which the prophecy was delivered? No.

Hypothesis: This god claimed will fulfill these prophecies cannot be relied upon to actually do so. All experiments and observations in this vein have yielded results consistent with this hypothesis.

Buzsaw writes:

By the same token, how would you distinguist this from illusion? Why do you consider it likely that your particular p.o.v. most represents the truth?

What exactly do you mean by "this" in such a context? Your post? I have objective evidence that other people can see both of our posts, and that it doesn't occur completely within my own mind.

Buzsaw writes:

when encountered by the missionary, the wicca woman fell dead in the assembly of the tribe. After questioning the locals, it was determined that the woman was a couple of decades older than humans should live.

So a missionary kills a respected member of the tribe, and then that same person (who obviously has no ulterior motive) determines that this person was decades older than humans should live. So of course it totally wasn't their fault.

Or, the pressure or direct accusation of the missionary causes the tribe to suspect the woman of witchcraft, causing them to murder the woman. In order to avoid prosecution they blame is on the woman falling dead of her own accord.

How exactly do you get accurate dates on someone's age through what is almost certainly an oral history, assuming that they are tens of years older than anyone else could presumably be? What expert do they have to consider the body or assess the claims of the uneducated local tribe or the suspect missionaries?

Murders of women accused of witchcraft are common in places such as New Guinea. This story is at best simply a story, and at worst most likely an account of a murder.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 07-03-2010 3:05 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2010 5:44 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5954
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 21 of 51 (567969)
07-03-2010 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
07-03-2010 3:37 PM


Re: Seems that most agree with me
Aa I have stated previously, your anecdotes are not phenomena. They are religious stories that you have no evidence for.

Your stories are neither observed or observable nor impressive or extraordinary because they are stories. Provide some evidence other than hearsay and we may want to consider them as phenomena. Till then they are anecdote and story. You yourself can not attest to their validity.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 07-03-2010 3:37 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2590 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 22 of 51 (567974)
07-03-2010 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
07-03-2010 3:05 PM


Re: Limitations of Science?
Hi Buz! Good to hear from you.

Buzsaw writes:

Phage writes:


This is false. The SETI project has it *right in the acronym* that it is searching for intelligence other than that of earth humans. God need only radio in for science to find him.

Alas, Phage. That's not how creating designers operate; foolishly assigning the designed object created the role of dictating to the creator the role/purpose of the object created/designed.

How do you know? Seems like you're the one telling God what he can and can't do.

Buzsaw writes:

Phage writes:

Also, science certainly can study potentially fulfilled biblical prophecy. Science is a method that anyone passingly familiar with the method can perform (with varying degrees of quality of course). Science isn't generally applied toward this end as believers don't like the results.

Please cite one example of the above.

Please, enough with the fulfilled Biblical prophecy.

Prophecy is poetry, open to interpretation. Always. Unless you can come up with an unambiguous prophecy, you don't have anything factual that science can investigate. By unambiguous, I mean one which can be verified to have been made before the event prophesied, is clear and precise about what is prophesied, giving names and details, and can also be verified to have happened exactly as the prophecy said it would.

Example one: Nostradamus writes, "Five hundred years from now, the most powerful country in the New World will be led for the first time by a man with an African father."

Example two: Nostradamus writes: "From the depths of the West of Europe, a young child will be born of poor people, he who by his tongue will seduce a great troop; his fame will increase towards the realm of the East."

Gee, which do you think is the real Nostradamus?

Unless you can point to a prophecy that sounds like example one and not number two, prophecy isn't evidence for anything, and isn't any more subject to scientific investigation than Emily Dickinson.

Buzsaw writes:

...after a three day fast, when encountered by the missionary, the wicca woman fell dead in the assembly of the tribe. After questioning the locals, it was determined that the woman was a couple of decades older than humans should live. It was concluded that she was so totally empowered by the demons that when they departed, the shell/body of the woman collapsed lifeless. I attended this missionary meeting at a Christian & Missianary Alliance evening service back in the 1960s or so when he was home on furlough.

Etc.

So you weren't there. You have a story told to you 40+ years ago by someone who isn't even telling you what happened, but how he interpreted what he said happened. I am, to say the least, skeptical of the quality of this evidence. You'd have better luck trying to verify some of Mike Warnke's supernatural claims.

By the way, Wicca is a modern pagan religion, which began in England in the 1950s It has approximately nothing whatever to do with any South American indigenous practices. The only Wiccans you're going to find down there are white folks on Amazonian Ecotours. Or maybe you're just using the term generically to describe anyone who practices a non-monotheistic (and therefore Satanic) religion, in which case you're only being imprecise.

Better luck next time.

ABE: Yes, I know that New Guinea isn't anywhere near South America. I just mis-remembered the locale in Buz's original anecdote. Sorry.

Edited by ZenMonkey, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 07-03-2010 3:05 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Coragyps, posted 07-03-2010 5:02 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 23 of 51 (567975)
07-03-2010 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ZenMonkey
07-03-2010 4:37 PM


Re: Limitations of Science?
Yes, I know that New Guinea isn't anywhere near South America. I just mis-remembered the locale in Buz's original anecdote.

My guess is that an intrepid researcher of fundamentalist missionary stories could find this same story attributed to both places, as well as to "Africa." Generic "africa," not a specific country.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ZenMonkey, posted 07-03-2010 4:37 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 24 of 51 (567977)
07-03-2010 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
07-03-2010 9:54 AM


Re: What are the implications?
Great to see you back, jar.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 07-03-2010 9:54 AM jar has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 25 of 51 (567978)
07-03-2010 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phage0070
07-03-2010 3:54 PM


Re: Limitations of Science?
Hi Phage,

Phage0070 writes:

Ok. Consider Matthew 24:29-34; have the stars fallen out of the sky and a simultaneous lunar and solar eclipse occurred in the span of the generation to which the prophecy was delivered? No.

OK I will consider it.

In Matthew chapter 24:

1) Who is speaking or writing?
2) Who is being quoted in the speaking or writing?
3) To whom or about whom/what is he/she speaking or writing?
4) What subject is he/she speaking or writing about?
5) When or about what time is he/she speaking or writing?
6) What is the occasion for the speaking or writing?

This is known as the six point question rule.

The answers to these questions are necessary to understand the meaning of any passage in the Bible.

Once the answers to these questions are obtained the application must be determined.

1) Is it a general application of a truth or deed to every person?

2) Is it a particular application of a truth or deed to an individual or a particular group?

These are some of the first things a person is taught in Bible College.

1) Matthew or some one is writing.
2) Jesus is speaking in 24:2, and begins speaking again in 24:4.
3) In vs 2 Jesus is speaking to His disciples which is His Church/Bride, and again in verse 4 Jesus begins to speak again to His disciples who are His Church/Bride.
4) Jesus is speaking about three subjects. The destruction of the temple, The sign of His return, and The end of the world/Universe.
5) 2 days before He is betrayed to be crucified. Matthew 26:2.
6) The occasion for Jesus speaking was that the disciples had asked 3 specific question. He did teach them many other things. The three questions was given under #4.

Conclusions:

Matthew is writing quoting Jesus.
Jesus is speaking to His disciples/Church/Bride.
About the destruction of the temple, His return, and the destruction of the Universe.

Since the disciples/Church/Bride is still in existence there are still those alive to see the coming events that will take place in the future.

If you are alive when they do come true remember that I am now prophesying that these events will take place in the future as the Bible states.

God Bless,

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phage0070, posted 07-03-2010 3:54 PM Phage0070 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2010 5:57 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 26 of 51 (567980)
07-03-2010 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ICANT
07-03-2010 5:44 PM


Re: Limitations of Science?
...and the destruction of the Universe.

Pretty damn wasteful.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 07-03-2010 5:44 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 07-03-2010 6:40 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 51 (567984)
07-03-2010 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Coyote
07-03-2010 5:57 PM


Re: Limitations of Science?
Also still totally irrelevant since they have not come true. Just another failed prophecy it seems.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic banner.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Coyote, posted 07-03-2010 5:57 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 28 of 51 (567986)
07-03-2010 6:43 PM


Things Bible and Biblical prophecy are off-topic
Period. No arguments. Just stay clear of such.

Adminnemooseus

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : 2nd paragraph.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Removed 2nd paragraph and added off-topic banner.


    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 51 (568297)
07-05-2010 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Theodoric
07-02-2010 11:18 PM


Capacity (psychic and spiritual)
Theodoric writes:

Capacity (psychic and spiritual)

Theodoric, I understood this on your list as anything pertaining to spiritual. Please explain what you are alluding to and what the on topic perameters are relative to this.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Theodoric, posted 07-02-2010 11:18 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Huntard, posted 07-05-2010 8:07 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 31 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2010 8:43 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 375 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 30 of 51 (568303)
07-05-2010 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Buzsaw
07-05-2010 7:56 AM


Re: Capacity (psychic and spiritual)
Buzsaw writes:

Theodoric, I understood this on your list as anything pertaining to spiritual. Please explain what you are alluding to and what the on topic perameters are relative to this.


This isn't Theodoric's list, It's Practical Prodigy's. So, you'd really have to ask him about that, I think.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 07-05-2010 7:56 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Prev1
2
34Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019