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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3114 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 46 of 60 (567647)
07-02-2010 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Practical Prodigy
07-02-2010 12:22 AM


Re: About Me
If anything animals devolve and lose genetic information, fitness, etc usually. This is the reason animals were much larger in the past...

Wow, I'd hate to have come across one of those early single-celled organisms that were the first to live on this planet. They'd surely have swallowed me whole!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Practical Prodigy, posted 07-02-2010 12:22 AM Practical Prodigy has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 47 of 60 (567665)
07-02-2010 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Practical Prodigy
07-01-2010 7:24 PM


Re: About Me
The Placebo Effect

Just so you know, the placebo effect (also see the Hawthorn effect) can be explained by the reduction in anxiety and increased sense of control we feel when either doing something we beleive to be positive or having something we believe to be psoitive done to us.

It is established that long term anxiety and depression causes physiological issues (such as compromising immune response) and lifting of these symptoms can cause positive outcomes for patients based solely on their perception of symptoms.

Being in a control group in a drug trial makes people beleive someone is doing something to help them and this activates the Hawthorn effct. No mistery. No problem for ToE.

As consequnce I see no reason to see this as a problem for ToE.

In fact, you will have to establish that any on that list are problems for evolution as I can't see one that poses a problem.

To take another example: The Hum (noise from modern machines that some people can hear and some can't). How is this a problem for ToE?

You might as well ask why those screamer devices that kids can hear but adults can't is a problem for ToE.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Practical Prodigy, posted 07-01-2010 7:24 PM Practical Prodigy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Huntard, posted 07-02-2010 7:05 AM Larni has responded
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 07-02-2010 10:11 AM Larni has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 467 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 48 of 60 (567674)
07-02-2010 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Larni
07-02-2010 5:54 AM


Re: About Me
Larni writes:

Being in a control group in a drug trial makes people beleive someone is doing something to help them and this activates the Hawthorn effct. No mistery. No problem for ToE.

As consequnce I see no reason to see this as a problem for ToE.

In fact, you will have to establish that any on that list are problems for evolution as I can't see one that poses a problem.

To take another example: The Hum (noise from modern machines that some people can hear and some can't). How is this a problem for ToE?

You might as well ask why those screamer devices that kids can hear but adults can't is a problem for ToE.


To be fair to PP, he didn't say these were ptoblems for ToE. He said:

PP writes:

Im not sure what your trying to imply. I stated that science was based on methodological naturalism and divorces anything that cant be repeatedly observed or explained through naturalism from its scope. This would leave out various phenomena that have been thoroughly proven to occur.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1815 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 49 of 60 (567675)
07-02-2010 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Practical Prodigy
07-02-2010 12:22 AM


Re: About Me
This is the reason animals were much larger in the past

Yep, all we have these days is the diminutive blue whale...

Oh, wait...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Practical Prodigy, posted 07-02-2010 12:22 AM Practical Prodigy has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 50 of 60 (567679)
07-02-2010 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Huntard
07-02-2010 7:05 AM


Re: About Me
Your're right, curses!
This message is a reply to:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 51 of 60 (567680)
07-02-2010 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Practical Prodigy
07-02-2010 2:00 AM


Re: About Me
Sorry, miss read your post to read the list as challenges for ToE.

They're still not unexplained, though.

ABE: don't worry about the 'pile on' that's happening here. It's par for the course for a new member.

Stand your ground, don't blink and you will do just fine, here.

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Practical Prodigy, posted 07-02-2010 2:00 AM Practical Prodigy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by AZPaul3, posted 07-02-2010 8:19 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4140
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 52 of 60 (567686)
07-02-2010 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Larni
07-02-2010 7:32 AM


Re: About Me
Stand your ground, don't blink and you will do just fine, here.

Friendly advice, Larni. But you might forewarn him to get his facts straight before trying again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Larni, posted 07-02-2010 7:32 AM Larni has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 63 days)
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 53 of 60 (567689)
07-02-2010 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Practical Prodigy
07-02-2010 12:22 AM


Re: About Me
Hi Practical Prodigy and welcome to EvC Forum.

What I dispute is the fact that one genus of organism can change into another.

Okay.

I would not fit into any version of creationism due to my belief in convergence, speciation, etc.

Okay now I'm confused. You say that evolution cannot create new genera. You also imply that you would not invoke divine creation to explain the existence of genera.

So... where did the genera come from?

I also only believe in a allagory translation of Genesis, not literal which would also put me in the theistic evolutionist camp.

No. If you do not believe that evolution can cause change above species level, you do not accept the Theory of Evolution, as it is currently understood. That doesn't make you any kind of evolutionist, theistic or otherwise. It makes you an evolution denier of some stripe.

Mutate and Survive


"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod
This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6316
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 54 of 60 (567710)
07-02-2010 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Larni
07-02-2010 5:54 AM


Placebo effect
Recent studies are also showing that the Placebo effect my actually just be an artifact of how medical research is conducted.

http://getbetterhealth.com/...dicine-is-it-a-sham/2010.03.27

But on the whole the Placebo effect is very well understood. As is everything else on his list.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6316
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 55 of 60 (567715)
07-02-2010 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Practical Prodigy
07-01-2010 7:24 PM


Re: About Me
Please start a thread with this. It will be lots of fun to tear it apart. I think Dr. Adequate will relish this as much as I will.

If you are going to propose this as a topic though, you will need to be prepared.
First of all you will need to provide evidence that all of these phenomena exist. Then you will have to provide evidence that the phenomena cannot be adequately explained.

Do you have what it takes to do this? If so propose a new thread. If you don't maybe you should issue some sort of retraction.

As for the Chatsworth crash, I do not see what is so spectacular about this. The guys cell phone randomly called numbers after the crash. I think that it is very explainable that this is something a damaged cellphone could do. Now to make it some sort of big wooo thing it would have had to call someone not on the cell phone directory and call someone after the expected life of the battery. Or is your supernatural world limited by cell phone and battery technology.

I am quite amazed that you purport this to be a serious list and include things that have a solid scientific explanation.
St. Elmo's fire, Deja Vu and Tunguska.

Then you include things that have quite well thought out hypothesis. Naga fireballs, Mammatus Clouds, UFO's, Spontanueous Human combustion.

And then you include a lot of new age woo and bunk that has no evidence whatsoever. You provide your so-called "evidence" and I will gladly refute it.

Who knows maybe you can convince me.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Practical Prodigy, posted 07-01-2010 7:24 PM Practical Prodigy has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 56 of 60 (567748)
07-02-2010 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Theodoric
07-02-2010 10:11 AM


Re: Placebo effect
Recent studies are also showing that the Placebo effect my actually just be an artifact of how medical research is conducted.

Yep. Being in a control group is enough to ignite the placebo effect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 07-02-2010 10:11 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 57 of 60 (567879)
07-02-2010 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Practical Prodigy
07-01-2010 8:07 PM


Re: About Me
Cambrian Explosion. I could provide more if you would like.

Nonsense. I could provide more if you would like.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Practical Prodigy, posted 07-01-2010 8:07 PM Practical Prodigy has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 278 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 58 of 60 (567880)
07-02-2010 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Practical Prodigy
07-02-2010 12:22 AM


Re: About Me
This is the reason animals were much larger in the past, even the primate brain has been proven to be bigger in earlier primates.

Not exactly.

The only cranial size that exceeds our own is Neanderthal, and that is 1) not by much, and 2) for only a portion of the crania examined.

None of the other early primates had cranial sizes approaching our own.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Practical Prodigy, posted 07-02-2010 12:22 AM Practical Prodigy has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 59 of 60 (567886)
07-03-2010 12:47 AM


Oh look, it's a Gish Gallop!
  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 870 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 60 of 60 (568447)
07-05-2010 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Practical Prodigy
07-02-2010 12:22 AM


Re: About Me
Hi, Prodigy.

Practical Prodigy writes:

I would not fit into any version of creationism due to my belief in convergence, speciation, etc.

Based on what you've written so far, you sound like you fit into the Old Earth Creationist camp.

Virtually all creationists/IDists today accept microevolution. Many creationists of all stripes accept speciation (generally more common among OECs than YECs). All of both subgroups draw the line at "kinds," and only disagree about what constitutes a "kind": your belief of cutting it off at the genus is pretty standard.

Your belief in an allegorical Genesis is typical of Day-Age Creationism or Gap Creationism.

You also may fit with the "front-loading" club: the people who believe that God started life with all the genetic information it needed to diversify and adapt, and life has since been "devolving" by losing genetic information through mutation and adaptation.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Practical Prodigy, posted 07-02-2010 12:22 AM Practical Prodigy has not yet responded

  
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