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Author Topic:   Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2158 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 28 of 295 (568252)
07-05-2010 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hepteract
06-25-2010 2:48 PM


quote:
Once again, the orders are as such: Genesis 1: Animals, Plants, Man & Woman. Genesis 2: Man, Plants, Animals, Woman.
This contradiction seems to debunk the inerrancy of the bible. This thread is to provide a place for debate as to whether or not it actually does.
Whether or not this is a real "contradiction" or whether it implies an "error" depends on one's interpretation of the text, and is not as straightforward as you seem to believe.
If Gen 1 and 2 are interpreted as literally as possible, with the Hebrew waw-consecutive (preterite) forms taken as strictly consecutive, then there indeed seems to be a contradiction. But I see this as an argument that they should not be interpreted quite so literally.
If one believes that Gen 1 and 2 are both divinely inspired, then one will look for ways to reconcile them. Or if one believes that the author (or redactor) understood what he was writing, one will likewise look for ways to reconcile them. Following this approach, one interprets the chapters not quite so literally, in light of one another.
Or if one believes that they are stories from different traditions, one can accept that they are not strictly consistent with one another, but that they both reveal truth and that they represent no "error."
So the first questions to be asked are: What the original author(s) was trying to communicate in chapters 1 and 2? How are they meant to be understood? Their different perspectives don't necessarily imply error.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by hepteract, posted 06-25-2010 2:48 PM hepteract has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by hepteract, posted 07-05-2010 8:58 PM kbertsche has replied
 Message 39 by purpledawn, posted 07-05-2010 9:44 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2158 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 47 of 295 (568574)
07-06-2010 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by hepteract
07-05-2010 8:58 PM


quote:
That doesn't work. If the passage brings up the order, even if the order is not its purpose, it must keep consistent. If the words used could be interpreted as not being a description of order, then your argument would be sound. However I fail to see how "before any plant of the field had yet sprung up" can be interpreted as not meaning man was created before plants.
1) if the order is topical rather than chronological, it could be different in two different accounts which have different purposes. PD's Message 39 relates to this (maybe she accidently replied to me instead of to you?)
2) Gen 2:5-7 is probably not talking about all plant life, as others have said here. Note the parallel in the logic. Two things had not appeared, because two conditions had not been met. First, there was no wild desert vegetation, because there had been no rain. Second, there was no cultivated grain, because there was no man to cultivate it. (For a well-done, detailed exegesis of this passage, see "Because it had rained" by Mark Futato, Westminster Theological Journal 60:1-21 (1998), available on the internet.)

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 Message 36 by hepteract, posted 07-05-2010 8:58 PM hepteract has not replied

kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2158 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 117 of 295 (576936)
08-26-2010 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Joseppi
08-23-2010 12:50 PM


Re: Chronology
Where in Genesis chapter two is there any chronological order presented, other than, what is demanded by the context of the chapter's narration?
The chapter begins by closing the discussion of chapter one and opening a new topic. The new topic is GENERATIONS of....
Which has nothing to do with chronological order as any requirement.
In chapter two there exists no terms implying chronology.
The word "AND" doesn't mean "AND THEN".
Chronology is implied by the Hebrew "waw-consecutive" or "preterite" construction, which runs through chapter 2 as well as chapter 1. This is the normal grammatical construction used for narrative. It implies a blow-by-blow chronological account. Thus it often is translated "and then" or "then" instead of "and." Check some other translations for chapters 1 and 2. Quite a few of them (NASB, NLT, NKJV, HCSB, New Century, God's Word) sometimes render the waw-consecutive as "then" in these chapters.
But the waw-consecutive construction does not always show chronology. E.g. Gen 2:15 starts with a waw-consecutive, but it is actually a restatement of Gen 2:8b. It does not indicate that man was placed in the garden twice. (Gen 2:9-14 is a non-chronological side comment; the waw-consecutive at Gen 2:15 repeats the last chronological piece and serves to pull us back into the chronological account.)
So the waw-consecutive construction in chapter 2 normally indicates chronology, but not always. These non-chronological exceptions should be determined from the literary context.
One could argue that the chronology of chapter 2 should defer to that presented in chapter 1, since chapter 1 came first. On the other hand, chapter 2 reads more like a historical, chronological narrative, with a similar style to the following chapters. Chapter 1 is different; it is much more stylized and formulaic in its construction. So one could also argue that the chronology in chapter 2 should take precedence over chapter 1 on this basis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Joseppi, posted 08-23-2010 12:50 PM Joseppi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Joseppi, posted 08-30-2010 8:53 AM kbertsche has replied

kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2158 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 144 of 295 (577816)
08-30-2010 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Joseppi
08-30-2010 8:53 AM


Re: Chronology
Joseppi writes:
kbertsche writes:
Thus it often is translated "and then" or "then" instead of "and."
And the text in English proves this. What many are doing is using the word..."And" as if it meant "And then". Which it of course doesn't.
You completely missed my point! If the Hebrew construction is a waw-consecutive (preterite), the "and" usually DOES mean "and then." This is the most literal translation and is how one is normally taught to translate the waw-consecutive in a biblical Hebrew class. So unless the context argues against it, the waw-consecutives in Gen 1 and Gen 2 (which are most of the "and's") should be translated "and then."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Joseppi, posted 08-30-2010 8:53 AM Joseppi has not replied

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