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Author | Topic: Identifying false religions. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
And who get's to decide what is or is not ridiculous? You? True or not true: You posted it to prove the point that in order for anyone to take the agnostic position, even the most absurd notions would logically have to be categorized in the same manner. "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
The forum was hacked, that's why.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Jar writes: Because I defined it as making a difference. You can of course internally define your internal concept of GOD in any way you find personally appealing. However your concept of GOD - This immaterial and undetectable "creator of all that is, seen and unseen" - is necessarily a product of your own internal mind. It has not been perceived. It can not have been perceived. So it's conception must be the product of internal imagination alone. Just as is the case with any other undetectable concept. Yes - It is philosophically possible that it may actually exist. It is philosophically possible that your imagination may have hit upon some great truth of reality by virtue of random chance alone. But there is no more reason to suppose that this GOD does actually exist than there is any other un-evidenced and un-falsifiable concept the human mind can concoct. Concoct so as to satisfy very human internal needs.
jar writes: BUT...despite the fact that we cannot identify or determine if there is or is not a GOD, we can look at individual beliefs, at the Gods created and being marketed, and decide whether we believe they might be a reasonable icon and even if it happened to turn out that the caricature was really a GOD, whether that God is worthy of worship or should be opposed. Why worship or oppose any concept that we know must have been made-up?
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Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Straggler writes: And who get's to decide what is or is not ridiculous? You? True or not true: You posted it to prove the point that in order for anyone to take the agnostic position, even the most absurd notions would logically have to be categorized in the same manner. Actually the farting cow hypothesis is Bluegenes baby not mine. Maybe you should direct your ire at him? Anyway - Why exactly do you consider some unfalsifiable hypotheses as being "ridiculous" or "absurd" and is that subjective judgement alone enough of a basis on which to dismiss them as invalid? Bluegenes point is that he has a logical and evidential basis for dismissing these possibilities. Reasons that do not just rely on what he subjectvely finds "ridiculous". But that exact same reasoned argument also applies to the god hypothesis. Whether you, he or anyone else finds that particular hypothesis "ridiculous" or not. Subjective notions of "ridicuousness" are irrelevant. That is the point.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Straggler writes: However your concept of GOD - This immaterial and undetectable "creator of all that is, seen and unseen" - is necessarily a product of your own internal mind. Huh? Or it might actually exist.
Straggler writes: Why worship or oppose any concept that we know must have been made-up? Please read what I write. Beliefs whether factual or fantasy effect how people behave. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.1
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Huh? Or it might actually exist. Even that which is entirely the product of a human mind may actually exist. The idea of the Matrix is entirely conceived by human minds, yet is possibly true. The issue is simply that "it might be true" is not ever good enough for anything, ever. There are an infinite number of conceivable hypotheses for just about anything that could be true - the deciding factor is which hypotheses are more likely to be true than the others. When presented with an observation regarding a hypothesis, one should never ever ask "does this observation allow me to believe my hypothesis to be true?" The correct question is "does this observation compel me to believe my hypothesis to be true?" Every observation I could conceivably make would allow me to believe that some nonspecific deity may exist, or that we live in the Matrix, or that all of life is just a dream, or that I have an invisible dragon in my garage. But there are no observations that compel me to believe those hypotheses to be true over any others. Belief is a game of relative probability - what we believe is simply that which we think is most likely to be true. I cannot honestly say that I think that it is most likely that we live in the Matrix above all other possible competing hypotheses, so I cannot believe that we live in teh Matrix - I would need compelling evidence to justify such a belief, even though it may still be true. Disbelief is not the same as a negative claim. You and I and everyone else disbelieve a thousand things every day before lunchtime; I disbelieve that I will run into an invisible bicyclist on my way to work, or that my office will have been replaced by a McDonalds overnight. I disbelieve because those hypotheses are less likely to be true than competing hypotheses (such as the hypothesis that if I cannot see a bicyclist in a given location, there is not in fact a bicyclist there; or the hypothesis that demolishing a large building and replacing it with a McDonalds would take more than a single night's work). Without compelling evidence, possibly-true hypotheses are discarded as unlikely. That's the very heart of Occam's Razor. But note that "unlikely" is not the same as "false." Broken clocks are right twice each day, and the fanciful imagination of a child may in fact describe some part of reality simply by chance. But if you ask what time it is, I'm not going to believe that broken clock simply because it is less likely to be accurate than it is to be telling the wrong time. I disbelieve the less likely hypothesis. Uncertainty never ever justifies belief, for the same reason it is irrational to believe that the stopped clock is actually telling the correct time. Possibility in no way conveys greater probability; believing the stopped clock to be telling the incorrect time is always more likely to be true.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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HUH?
Is there anything in there other than 'The issue is simply that "it might be true" is not ever good enough for anything, ever' that I should disagree with? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
jar writes: Is there anything in there other than 'The issue is simply that "it might be true" is not ever good enough for anything, ever' that I should disagree with? What possible disagreement could you have to the concept that it isn't OK to believe something is true just because it *might* be true?
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Because I believe in many things that might be true?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
jar writes: Because I believe in many things that might be true? So your argument in favor of that behavior which was reasonably argued as being unacceptable, is that it is OK because you already do it? That seems to imply the premise that you cannot be wrong, and I find no reason to accept that.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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"Phage0070" writes: So your argument in favor of that behavior which was reasonably argued as being unacceptable, is that it is OK because you already do it? That would certainly be an acceptable argument for me since I have not seen any reasonable argument that believing in something that simply might be true is unacceptable. After all I've believed many times someone was in love with me, that I would like a particular pair of socks, that I really do want desert before the main course and found all those acceptable.
"Phage0070" writes: That seems to imply the premise that you cannot be wrong, and I find no reason to accept that. Nonsense. There are even things I believed to be true that I later found out were not true. The socks itched, the young lady did not love me and after I finished desert I did not enjoy the main course as much as I expected. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
jar writes: That would certainly be an acceptable argument for me since I have not seen any reasonable argument that believing in something that simply might be true is unacceptable. Belief in something that simply might be true and belief in something simply *because* it might be true are very different things. Believing that someone is in love with you because they have shown something that indicates they might be is quite reasonable. Believing someone is in love with you simply because it *might* be true, without any other reason, isn't OK.
jar writes: Nonsense. There are even things I believed to be true that I later found out were not true. So when Rahvin says that something potentially being true is not alone an acceptable reason to believe anything, your response is that you are comfortable with a decision-making process that yields more incorrect conclusions that Rahvin is prepared to accept. That is probably the most honest answer I have thoroughly disagreed with in a long time.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phage0070 writes: Believing someone is in love with you simply because it *might* be true, without any other reason, isn't OK. Why? Ever have a crush on another person?
Phage0070 writes: So when Rahvin says that something potentially being true is not alone an acceptable reason to believe anything, your response is that you are comfortable with a decision-making process that yields more incorrect conclusions that Rahvin is prepared to accept. Huh? I am comfortable with the system that I use. I don't try to tell someone else what to believe. There is a difference between 'belief' and 'conclusion or knowledge'. I don't 'believe' in gravity, it is a conclusion forced on me by overwhelming evidence. But this topic revolves around "Identifying false religions." I believe there is a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen. That is a belief and I can present NO evidence in support of that belief. It might be true and I happen to believe that it is true. Now to identifying false religions. First, all the evidence I have found seems to show that all religions, including the one I happen to belong to, are very likely false. So if I can see that my very own religion is likely false, how can I in honesty subscribe to it? Because humans are limited. A religion is at best a human creation, the closest we can come to imagining the unimaginable. It is very likely not accurate, complete, correct but it is at best, the best we can do. Does that mean that all religions are created equal? Well, no. A religion that denies 'conclusions' is definitely false. Those Christians for example that oppose Evolution or believe there really was a Noahic Flood are just plain wrong. There is overwhelming evidence that such beliefs are just plain incorrect. Then there could be a religion that believes in an evil god, like the god so many Christians seem to try to market. That is a different issue. There, even if the god they try to market did turn out to be true, it is a god that should be opposed. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
jar writes: Why? Ever have a crush on another person? Hope and belief are two very different things. Hope that the target of your crush will go out with you is natural, belief that they will is simply wishful thinking. This distinction has important effects on your behavior. Someone who believes their crush will go out with them might purchase movie tickets in advance, while someone who *hopes* will recognize the uncertainty of their desire.
jar writes: I am comfortable with the system that I use. I don't try to tell someone else what to believe. I don't think anyone claimed you were uncomfortable with your belief system, the claim is that you should be.
jar writes: There is a difference between 'belief' and 'conclusion or knowledge'. I don't 'believe' in gravity, it is a conclusion forced on me by overwhelming evidence.... I believe there is a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen. That is a belief and I can present NO evidence in support of that belief. It might be true and I happen to believe that it is true. Semantics are often a problem when twisted away from their common meanings. I think most people would consider that they believe gravity exists and operates, using the term "belief" to mean "confidence in the truth or existence of something". If you have a significantly different view of the term, please explain in detail. Now, if you are confident that a god exists but cannot *present* evidence it does not mean that you came to your decision without evidence whatsoever. My parents for instance claim individual personal revelations which of course don't stand up to scrutiny after the fact, but were convincing to them at the time. I find it extremely unlikely that you came to your belief in a god based solely on it being *possible*.
jar writes: First, all the evidence I have found seems to show that all religions, including the one I happen to belong to, are very likely false. It is very astute of you to admit this point. My question to you is what convinced you that a god exists at all, rather than simply delusion?
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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I don't think anyone claimed you were uncomfortable with your belief system, the claim is that you should be. LOL. Okay. Whatever. I really don't much care what others assert.
Now, if you are confident that a god exists but cannot *present* evidence it does not mean that you came to your decision without evidence whatsoever. I'm actually pretty sure that no evidence is even possible as long as we live.
My question to you is what convinced you that a god exists at all, rather than simply delusion? HUH? I said above that it is just a belief not a conclusion. What ever might have convinced me is simply personal, of no value to anyone else. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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