Creationists think Evolutionists think like Creationists.

Haught writes:Everyone's a Skeptic - about Other Religions By James A. HaughtI've hatched some questions you may find useful. They're designed to show that church members, even the most ardent worshipers, are skeptics too - because they doubt every magical system . . . except their own.You're an unbeliever, just like me. You doubt many sacred dogmas. Let me show you:
--- Millions of Hindus pray over statues of Shiva's penis. Do you think there's an invisible Shiva who wants his penis prayed over -- or are you a skeptic? --- Mormons say that Jesus came to America after his resurrection. Do you agree -- or are you a doubter? --- Florida's Santeria worshipers sacrifice dogs, goats, chickens, etc., and toss their bodies into waterways. Do you think Santeria gods want animals killed -- or are you skeptical? --- Muslim suicide bombers who blow themselves up in Israel are taught that "martyrs" go instantly to a paradise full of lovely female houri nymphs. Do you think the bombers now are in heaven with houris -- or are you a doubter? --- Unification Church members think Jesus visited Master Moon and told him to convert all people as "Moonies." Do you believe this sacred tenet of the Unification Church? --- Jehovah's Witnesses say that, any day now, Satan will come out of the earth with an army of demons, and Jesus will come out of the sky with an army of angels, and the Battle of Armageddon will kill everyone on earth except Jehovah's Witnesses. Do you believe this solemn teaching of their church? --- Aztecs skinned maidens and cut out human hearts for a feathered serpent god. What's your stand on invisible feathered serpents? Aha! -- just as I suspected, you don't believe. --- Catholics are taught that the communion wafer and wine magically become the actual body and blood of Jesus during chants and bell-ringing. Do you believe in the "real presence" -- or are you a disbeliever? --- Faith-healer Ernest Angley says he has the power, described in the Bible, to "discern spirits," which enables him to see demons inside sick people, and see angels hovering at his revivals. Do you believe this religious assertion? --- The Bible says people who work on the sabbath must be killed: "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death" (Exodus 31:15). Should we execute Sunday workers -- or do you doubt this scripture? --- At a golden temple in West Virginia, saffron-robed worshipers think they'll become one with Lord Krishna if they chant "Hare Krishna" enough. Do you agree -- or do you doubt it? --- Members of the Heaven's Gate commune said they could "shed their containers" (their bodies) and be transported to a UFO behind the Hale-Bopp Comet. Do you think they're now on that UFO -- or are you a skeptic? --- During the witch hunts, inquisitor priests tortured thousands of women into confessing that they blighted crops, had sex with Satan, etc. -- then burned them for it. Do you think the church was right to enforce the Bible's command, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Exodus 22:18) -- or do you doubt this scripture? --- Members of Spiritualist churches say they talk with the dead during their worship services. Do you think they actually communicate with spirits of deceased people? --- Millions of American Pentecostals spout "the unknown tongue," a spontaneous outpouring of sounds. They say it's the Holy Ghost, the third god of the Trinity, speaking through them. Do you believe this sacred tenet of many Americans? --- Scientologists say each human has a soul which is a "Thetan" that came from another planet. Do you believe their doctrine -- or doubt it? --- Ancient Greeks thought a multitude of gods lived on Mt. Olympus -- and some of today's New Agers think invisible Lemurians live inside Mt. Shasta. What's your position on mountain gods -- belief or disbelief? --- In the mountains of West Virginia, some people obey Christ's farewell command that true believers "shall take up serpents" (Mark 16:18). They pick up rattlers at church services. Do you believe this scripture, or not? --- India's Thugs thought the many-armed goddess Kali wanted them to strangle human sacrifices. Do you think there's an invisible goddess who wants people strangled -- or are you a disbeliever? --- Tibet's Buddhists say that when an old Lama dies, his spirit enters a baby boy who's just being born somewhere. So they remain leaderless for a dozen years or more, then they find a boy who seems to have knowledge of the old Lama's private life, and they annoint the boy as the new Lama (actually the old Lama in a new body). Do you think that dying Lamas fly into new babies, or not? --- In China in the 1850s, a Christian convert said God appeared to him, told him he was Jesus' younger brother, and commanded him to "destroy demons." He raised an army of believers who waged the Taiping Rebellion that killed 20 million people. Do you think he was Christ's brother -- or do you doubt it? Etc., etc. You get the picture. I'll bet there isn't a church member anywhere who doesn't think all those supernatural beliefs are goofy -- except for the one he believes. You see, by going through a laundry list of theologies, I think you can establish that the average Christian doubts 99 percent of the world's holy dogmas. But the 1 percent he believes is really no different than the rest. It's a system of miraculous claims, without any reliable evidence to support it. So, if we can show people that some sacred "truths" are nutty, maybe subconscious logic will seep through, and they'll realize that if some magical beliefs are irrational, all may be. This progression is rather like a scene in the poignant Peter de Vries novel, The Blood of the Lamb. A gushy woman compliments a Jew because "your people" reduced the many gods of polytheism to just one god. The man replies: "Which is just a step from the truth." Meanwhile, it's encouraging to realize that almost everyone in the world is a skeptic -- at least about other people's religion.

I consider that Buddha was likely a prophet.

GDR writes:Of course I can't prove that what I believe is factual anymore than any of you can prove it isn't, or that any atheist can prove the rightness of whatever code it is that they might live by.

We all live by faith in something even it is only our own intellect.

Of course I can't prove that what I believe is factual anymore than any of you can prove it isn't

Faith in nothing is still faith.

I have a hunch you would think it wrong to go out and take a hatchet to your next door neighbour. On what basis do you think it wrong?

there is no evidence that is irrefutable.

Theodoric writes:No it doesn't. What does faith have to do with morals? Are atheists immoral in your eyes? If so why?

crashfrog writes:I don't have "faith in nothing." I lack faith. I'm faithless.

On what basis do you decide something is right or worng.

GDR writes:You have to have faith that you were able to come to the correct conclusion and you have to have faith on the basis for that conclusion.

You have faith in the idea that there is nothing outside of what you decide is right or wrong on which any moral law is based.

GDR writes:You have to have faith that you were able to come to the correct conclusion and you have to have faith on the basis for that conclusion.

GDR writes:John Polkinghorne talks about God creating a world of becoming. He contends that God in the creation of a world of free will doesn't know exactly how the future is going to look but continues to work with us in time. A reading of the OT shows several instances where this is the case. I have been persuaded by his arguments for this position.

Also I don't believe that the majority of people will wind up in Hell. Those that wind up in Hell will be those who choose it. You mentioned reading "The Great Divorce". I think that is a great allegory of how that all works.

Another good example is "The Last Battle" where the dwarfs' mantra is that "the dwarfs are for the dwarfs". As a result, there they are in this beautiful new creation and they are all huddled together and aren't able to perceive the beautiful world around them.

I agree that it isn't empirical evidence in that it can't be scientifically tested, but it is evidence as much as any other historical text. I don't necessarily disbelieve all other religious texts. I read the first 1/3 or so the "Book of Buddha" in a Japanese hotel room and found it fascinating. What amazed me was how close the teachings of the first Buddha were to the teachings of Jesus. It left me with the sense that he could well have been a true prophet of God.

However I sincerely believe that the Bible is written with an inspiration that other holy books lack.

As I mentioned earlier Christianity makes sense of the world for me in a way that no other world view does. I agree that is a completely subjective view and in the end it does require a leap of faith. At this point in my life I don't see it as a large leap, but a leap nonetheless.

I agree that the idea of the resurrection is something that we don't see every day, but of course I'm only talking about it happening once so far in human history. Even sceptical scholars that I have read agree that the early disciples believed that Jesus had been resurrected, and I believe that they weren't mistaken.

thing momentous, but there have been occasions in my life that things have occurred that seemed to be of God.

I love discussing these things, but I'm less keen on a debate just for the sake of the debate.

My understanding is that rational means coming to a conclusion by means of reasoning. I'm just saying that when the complexity and fine tuning of our universe is considered it is more reasonable to assume that there is an external intelligence than to assume the lack of one. Once again, that is my subjective view.

I believe that you have to be a theist in order to be a deist.

Theism just means that you believe in a creator god, which would include the god of deism which is a god that creates and then intervenes no furtherp.

Frankly I joined this board to learn about science in general and physics specifically.

Sometimes I look at these religious threads and I just can't resist.

Usually I wind up regretting it as Christians are in a minority here and it seems that there are also a fairly large group that are interested at having a go at the irrational beliefs of people like me.

There are some brilliant minds on this formum and I have learned a lot although there is also a lot that goes over my head.

As do I, as I enjoy a discussion more than I do a debate. Thanks for that.

DevilsAdvocate writes:However, what I do take issue with especially is the morally contradictory and hypocritical nature of God in the Bible. To me he comes off as an irrational, selfish, vengeful, ego-maniacal, cruel tyrant who commands murders, infanticide and ethnicide of entire civilizations and groups of human beings. It is as if the the concept of god evolves throughout the Bible along with the civilization that conceives him in the first place. To me the god of the Bible is too contrived and too morally and philosophically dynamic in his nature, especially after having claimed himself to never-change.