Detecting God

Through faith. Lot's of things are immeasurable, and are still part of the real world. Matter of fact, billions, and billions of things are immeasurable, yet part of the real world.

We will never be able to accurately measure the weight of the universe. It is not because we are not capable of doing it, it is because we will never have a scale large enough...haNow please don't tell me how we have formulas for predicting the universes collapse, and the weight of the universe. Those are only approximations, and may be argued about until the actual end of the universe.We can't measure how many earth like planets there are in M101, because we cannot get there, and cannot see them. There are billions and billions of things in our universe that cannot be seen, and/or cannot be measured. Yet, they exist.So not being able to measure something, is no reason to claim that something does not exist.People argue there are other dimensions, we can't see or measure them, but they may well be there.Can you measure a thought? Thoughts exist. Billions of thoughts exist, and you cannot see them or measure them.Can you measure how much time has passed since the beginning of time?I could go on and on. Or you could use your own brain, and think of one of the millions of things that are immeasurable, I am sure you are capable of doing that. But you won't because you'd rather just single me out, and try to pick apart every little thing I say.Tell me, you can't think of one thing that is immeasurable?

So replace "there are planets in M101" with "if God exists".You are using your own argument against yourself. You left out the word "if." Time is measurable "if" we knew how long time has been around. But we don't know when time began, or if there was ever a beginning, or we just are on some kind of loop.My point is some things are not measurable, and I believe I proved it, and you proved it for me. Just because something is potentially measurable, does not prove it's existence. Quantum particles were not measurable 300 years ago, and we didn't even know they existed, yet they were there.Right now, planets in M101 are not part of our measurable world, since we can't measure them. We can't see them, we are not sure if they exist, and we may never know the answer to that question. M101 could be a background picture that God put up for us, for all we know.Thoughts are not that measurable. brain activity is. But if I had 10 thoughts in my head at once, could you tell me how big they were, how many, whether they were false or true? Thoughts that originated on my own? They are not really measurable, yet they exist.Lust, or love is not always measurable either. If I see someone for the first time, and have love at first sight, how do we measure that feeling? Only I can, because it is a subjective feeling.The point is, that just because you can't measure something, does not mean it exists, or not. Killing hurts logic is flawed.

It is visible, but does it really exist? Other dimensions may well in fact be a super natural realm. Of course there is no starting point. He is the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega. He is everything, and in everything. If you could measure one single thing, then you are measuring a part of God. Yes you have to apply faith, but God gave us the Holy Spirit which some people, including myself, claim to feel. So if something is supernatural, and we can not currently measure it, does that mean we won't be able to one day? Lot's of things throughout history were not measurable at one point or another. Lot's of things were theorized to exist, some them came into existence, others were wrong.Killinghurts point was that if we can't measure it, means it doesn't exist. Which is a false statement.

I understand how we started detecting stars. Right now we can only detect the wobble of a star that is close to us. Not positive, but I don't think we can detect any wobbles outside of our galaxy, so right now, there is no way to measure it. But most likely it is there.I have no clue how to OBJECTIVELY detect God. It is His universe, and He may not have made it so we could not detect Him by objective methods. This forum is filled with discussions about it. The bible tells us how we should seek for God, and it is a subjective method. Also God's way of letting us test Him, is subjective also. My argument about it all is that nothing is ever objective. It is only universally subjective. They say nothing is ever ultimately proven in science, so then how can anything ever be ultimately objective? We are all limited to how we see things. we all look through a telescope at M101, but is it really there? Can you prove to me that we are not in the Matrix or something?Also I've been taught in these forums (don't know if it is true) that if someone theorizes something, it is not up to us to prove him wrong, it is up to him to prove himself right. (which is weird, because nothing is ever proven??) So trying to prove God doesn't exist is fruitless.But that is not the point. The statement implies to us, that just because something is not measurable, means it does not exist, and not part of our world. Which is an erroneous statement. That is not how you prove something doesn't exist.

But it does, it is just subjective.Also, this is another erroneous statement, because you assume we have made every type of detection equipment that we will ever make. so much for making a bigger collider, we don't need it anymore, we can detect everything that is out there already.Thirdly, the God of the bible, says He is everything. So everything we test is God, therefor part of this world. If He exists.

I don't agree oni. What is beyond our universe? We are expanding according to the science of the hour, and just what is it that we are expanding into? We can't detect it, does it exist? Does it only exist once we get there?I sometimes even think that it is still possible we are in fact the center of the universe. Just like the science of yesteryear couldn't see that we orbit around the sun, maybe we can't see the our movement is way more complicated than first imagined, and in some kind of crazy way, everything is orbiting around us. There is no way of proving, what is our point of reference? The unknown black emptiness outside our "known universe"? I mean if space can be a curve, then why not a Spirograph? The pen is us. But instead of the pen pushing the spirograph around, the pen stays in one spot, and everything else goes around us? Then lets go to the 5th dimension.Probably real stupid, but I once heard on a creation science program that God could exist in the 29th dimension. Don't know how they came up with that one though.I think when we die, we go to the 4th or 5th dimension, and there is not time, or time as we know it. We can see all of time, like a line from point A to point B. Is nothing truly nothing? Or are there something smaller than quantum particles there? Yea, that's pretty much how I see it. There are miracles though, but even those, people make up other explanations, or other possibilities. It would seem that there is no objective evidence, and I think God wants it that way, since we are supposed to believe by faith. How much faith would it take to believe in God if a wall of fire came down and toasted our asses, and told us it was God? It would be a whole lot less than the way it is currently set up now.But it still doesn't mean God doesn't exist. People die, and we don't really know if there is a spirit, or is it continues. Ghost hunters try to see ghosts, and use all sorts of equipment, but I just kind of laugh at that. It's like me using a fishing pole to see what is on mars.You are arguing another point really, and I agree with that point. I still say the original op was an erroneous statement. If he would have said there is no objective evidence of God, I would have agreed with him. People of faith should not have these goal posts. The only goal post they should have is trying to love others, because God loves them. If they are truly feeling something from God, like I think I do, then they know a greater love than they previously knew. Knowing that causes you to love more. And that is how you spread the word, and that is your only goal post as a believer. Everything else is just man being man.Love is subjective, and not easily, or accurately tested, but we know it exists. I'm waiting for that day. As I wait, I see a lot of mistakes along the way. And as I said, there are somethings, due to the limitations of our known world, we may never know. It may be entirely possible, that even if we live for another billion years, that we will never make it to another galaxy.In the mean time, I don't really care how or what science thinks of it all, even though I enjoy science thoroughly. I am just so amazed by life, the universe, and everything. I always ask myself why, why did it all come about? What is the reason? Why the hell am I even thinking of that question, and how come this tree next to me isn't? Or maybe it is, who the hell knows.But then I think to myself, if God created it all, where the hell did He come from and why? But still I feel something inside. I did not feel it always, and I used to make fun of people that claimed they did. Now I just laugh at myself. I must have conjured up a pretty complicated scenario in my head. Oh well, I don't care, I enjoy it. I play music for God, and help others, and I believe it has changed me all for the better (funny cause I didn't think I needed any serious change).Talking with people like you, helps put what I am believing into a perspective, and has helped me define my faith over the years into what is really important. I think God sent the atheists to clear up all the BS going on round here.

Everyone went to a magic show. They all saw the subway car disappear right before their eyes. They all saw it, so it must have disappeared? Or did it? This is the universal subjectivity I am talking about.I've been in a room where everybody in it felt the same thing from God. Was it objective? No.I've done my own double blind tests (so to speak) about what people fell from God, and there is more to it, than just woo-woo. I agree, sort of. For me, seeking God is trying to learn from Him, so that I can go into the real world and make it better, with the right tools. Knowing God, and asking him when I should, and when I shouldn't interfere with stuff. I fail a lot. But many times I don't, and it is just magical. To me, nothing beats getting blessed by God with something, and then using that something to help others.This right here, is church to me.

Tangible meaning something you can measure. So how to you measure a chill, or a feeling of love? These things exist and are not really measurable.

So in other words, something exists there, but we can't measure it. true. Well I've been out of it for a while, and I had no formal training, I was into Amateur astronomy for years, and did help measure variable stars and such.
For years no one question if the earth went around the sun. From wikipedia, the definition of dimension:
The concept of dimension is not restricted to physical objects. High-dimensional spaces occur in mathematics and the sciences for many reasons, frequently as configuration spaces such as in Lagrangian or Hamiltonian mechanics; these are abstract spaces, independent of the physical space we live in.I was always under the impression that the 4th dimension involved time. I initially started to believe in God, because I like the words of Jesus in the bible. It made sense to me. Then I felt something more. It does give hope to think that there is more to life than just what we see. As the bible says to focus on the unseen, not the seen.But ultimately it was more what I felt, and continue to feel to this day from what I believe to be God. It's way too many subjective evidences that give me faith. It's the miracles that I've experienced. That is what gives me a strong faith, stronger than before I felt it. It's either God, or I am crazy.God is subjective, we all need something different from Him.

There is a subjective feeling associated with objective truth. I think there is a possibility, however small that is. I do not think something does not exist, just because there is no physical evidence of it. I think if you can imagine something, then the possibility of it existing.....exists. Which by default, is still something.
He is not nothingness.

Of course you are correct. That is why I did not know what to believe for so many years. Then there is the bible, which is evidence of Jesus's existence. It's one thing if you read a story about Santa Claus, and then once you find out your parents are putting the presents under the tree, you have no reason to believe anymore.But if you read stories about Jesus, and what he had to say, and those things ring true in your heart, then you have reason to believe, and start taking it into consideration. You start seeking.

I would not say everything I feel, and have experienced is subjective. Many of the things I have experienced were objective, but there is no way to prove to you (or myself) that is is God doing those things. That is where faith comes in.There are differences in religion that lead me to believe that what I feel is the God of the NT.Just for clarification, I have no idea why people believe in different god's, or do I believe the the God I believe in is the only God. It is quite possible that my God is making all this happen, so I don't judge it, or put people down for having different beliefs. People are so different across the board, and everyone's path is different. There may be a need for the different belief systems, and it may all be from the same God.

Doesn't matter. My point was that the things I feel and experience are measurable. There is real evidence, but there is no proof. But as I already said, nothing is ever really proven.

That is not the question.
The question is, just because we haven't detected something yet, does it mean it does not exist?Did Pluto exist before we detected it? Yes it did.So, I stand firm and say, just because we cannot detect God (and I think we can subjectively) is not a reason to say He does not exist.