Circular reasoning

You've got this all wrong. Reason and science are not authorities. They are processes that people use to arrive at reliable answers to questions about the real world. Although we often use the words figuratively -- science tells us that the world is 4.5 billion years old -- that's simply a short cut way of saying that scientists, using the scientific method, conclude based on the evidence we have at this time that the world is 4.5 billion years old.An ultimate authority is a source you turn to for answers you don't question. This is the exact opposite of science, and what scientists do. There are no answers scientists don't question. The scientific method can be divided into two different stages. One involved hypothesis building and the other involves hypothesis challenging. The fastest way for a scientist to make a name for himself is to discredit an existing, widely accepted theory.Science is a method, not an authority.Edited by subbie, : Subtitle

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

People may treat it that way, and it may be called that, but those are mistakes. Science is not an authority in the sense that you are using the word. You wrote to jar: This further demonstrates that science is not an "ultimate authority" as you mean it. The scientific method does not provide an answer to everything. Science is limited to observable phenomenon in the real world. There are a multitude of questions that science doesn't even try to answer: what is moral? what is beauty? what is justice? Science ignores these questions, so obviously it cannot be an "ultimate authority" as you use the phrase. Project much, sweetie?If you disagree with my description that an ultimate authority is one whose answers you don't question, it would be much more constructive for you to explain why, rather than dismiss it as stupid. However, perhaps you're not interested in being constructive. If that's the case, please let me know and I'll stop wasting my time. I'd guess that everyone in "[my] own group" agree with me in what I said.Of one thing I am certain, nobody in "[my] own group" thinks that any scientific finding is an ultimate conclusion. Every scientific conclusion is tentative, pending the discovery of new evidence or an new theory that better explains the existing evidence. What you need to do is explain how anything that is tentative can be an "ultimate authority."

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

I am not interested in discussing hypothetical beliefs that may be held by hypothetical people who are not here to defend them. It seems you and I agree that science is not an ultimate authority, so I have answered your question from the OP: I hope the answer satisfies you. I demolished the case for science being an ultimate authority because it isn't. I certainly wouldn't agree that I did it "too fast," whatever that means.I'm far from certain what you mean but the last sentence I quoted, but let me see if I can suss it out. It seems that you are suggesting that I should justify looking for evidence of a god's existence when gods are non-physical beings. If that is indeed what you are asking, the answer is quite simple. If there is a god, there are two possibilities. Either gods affect things on Earth they don't. If gods affect things on Earth, we can look for evidence of a god's action. If gods don't affect things on Earth, then there's really no way for us to know about gods. Thus, if one wants to know whether and how a god affects things on Earth, we look for evidence.To put it another way, the only thing we have to examine is the world around us. If we want to look for evidence of a god, what choice do we have other than to look for that evidence around us? If you have a suggestion for a method that has shown a better track record than scientific examination of evidence for finding out things about the world, please suggest it. I would truly love to learn of such a method.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

You didn't reply to my last message, so I'm going to assume you agree with it. Since we agree that science isn't an ultimate authority, I guess that means that those who rely on science to learn about the world aren't subject to your charge of circular reasoning. Of course, the scientific method doesn't rely on the authority of science to support itself. Instead, it relies on the observed fact that it produces results. It's the ultimate in pragmatism. It works. Following the scientific method, we learn things that allow us to make predictions about how things work, and how things that we build will work after they're done. The scientific method is the greatest success story that this planet has ever seen.Religion, on the other hand, has nothing to support itself other than itself. As you so accurately point it, it's one huge circular argument that has failed to produce any results that cannot be obtained by other methods.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

But it's the actual production of the results, not our observation of the results, that demonstrates the success of science. If the observation of results was all it took, we'd have to declare magic as successful as science. Now, if you want to equate science with producing results, I'd hardly be in a position to argue with you. But it wouldn't really help your silly position anyway. Nobody asked you for any of your nonsense, but you keep doling it out. It's a debate forum, dearie. If you can't stand the heat....

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Strangely enough, we don't evaluate the success of a theory by looking at all the things it doesn't do, particularly a list of things that it doesn't even purport to do. The theory of gravity doesn't explain any of those things, does that make it "insufficient?"Instead, we evaluate a theory on the basis of what it does do. Are you now going to claim that the ToE doesn't explain anything?(Note: for purposes of this reply, I'm not quarreling with Pauline's characterization that the ToE doesn't explain any of the things she lists. If another wants to take on that list, please feel free.) Oh, please do educate us. What miracle does the ToE relies on?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Okay, I will try to educate you.Evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis. The ToE describes how life changes once it has begun. Life may have begun by a god breathing life into a pile of dust. It may have begun from extraterrestrial microorganisms hitching a ride on a comet. It may have begun by aliens seeding the planet. It makes no difference.Plus, abiogenesis isn't a miracle. If it happened, it was a result of chemicals coming together in the exact same ways that they still come together today. Nothing miraculous about it. Why?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Well, well, well, at last we're getting somewhere.You believe your god when he says he's the ultimate authority because he's always right. Believe it or not, this is actually something that I could be willing to sign on to. If any being could actually do the things that you believe your god does, predict the future, know everything and always be right, I'd accept him as an ultimate authority. Of course, I would do so, not because he says so, but because he demonstrates that capacity.Thus, despite your best efforts, you've shown that your reasoning is not circular.Now, all you have to do it demonstrate that your god actually has the characteristics you attribute to him and you'll have a convert. In fact, I suspect you'd have several, right here. But I won't hold my breath, because I'm fairly certain you can't do that.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

If you expect people at a science-based forum board to ignore it when you post nonsense, you haven't been around very much.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

A more apropos question would be how can you reason someone out of believing nonsense?BTW, I'd appreciate it if once in a while you'd endeavor to answer the questions I ask you, and respond to the points I make. After all, that is the purpose of a debate forum, and it's actually expected of participants here.Just a heads up for you.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

If you like, we could trade lists. I'd quote all the points I made that you didn't respond to, and you quote everything you said to me that I didn't respond to. Wanna bet whose list would be longer?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Yeah, that biblical god, great guy!God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21)
God orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there, then orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3)
He orders another attack and the killing of all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses (Joshua 6)
He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her his wife. (Judges 21)
God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church. (2 Kings 10:18-27)And that's just a few of the highlights. Yup, regular peacekeeper that Ywaheawhaehw. He's certainly an authority on cruelty, mayhem and murder. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

And the fact that you find a sick fuck like that to be an ultimate authority on anything speaks volumes about what kind of a sick fuck you are yourself. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

In other words, until the ToE answers all questions, even those that don't relate to the ToE, you won't give it the time of day.Tell me, do you believe in the theory of gravity? The germ theory of disease? If so, why do you hold the ToE to a higher standard than other scientific theories? Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate