When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)

Hi, Buzsaw. This is very unhelpful. As presented in the OP, we are supposed to determine whether or not something was designed by an intelligent agent based on observations we can make about its characteristics right now.So, basically, your suggestion is that we can tell that things are intelligently designed by finding out whether they were intelligently designed.----- I'm not so sure you should make this generalization. After all, there is a gradient between things natural and things manufactured.If we gave an alien from outer space a beehive, a bird's nest, a wigwam and a Clovis point, would this alien be able to unambiguously determine which of those designs were made by intelligent agents and which were not?I doubt it.

---

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

You do realize you just destroyed your own argument, yes? If the alien is able to distinguish something designed, such as a paperclip, from something undesigned, such as nature, that means he can do so because nature isn't designed. Thank you, Buz.

Hi Ringo, I was not talking about intelligence being required for molecules to do what they do.I was saying that information is necessary for them to do what they do.Are you saying that no information is required for a new cell to be created that contains an exact duplicate of the DNA of every other cell in your body?Where does the information in the new cell DNA come from?Correct me if I am wrong but I understand that I have billions of cells in my body and each of them contain a copy of me.Is this correct?I guess I need someone to explain what information is, and where it comes from.The biggest question is does information occur naturally?ORDoes it require Intelligence to produce the information?Is design and pattern the same thing?How can we know that my DNA in each cell contains a copy of me?As you can see I still have a lot of questions.

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi jar, Are you saying that the universe as we know it has not always existed?ORAre you saying the elements that compose the universe had a beginning to exist?If the latter how did they begin to exist?Was it an accident?ORWas it caused by an intelligent being? If it did not come from non-existence then it had to exist in some form. Why would intelligence be needed when there is a law in effect that gives that result. But that is what this thread is about, so how is it irrelevant or unimportant?Either the laws of Physics was given by an intelligent designer or they just happened by accident prior to expansion. Then by all means present those options. And you have evidence that there are laws that have been created by accidents. Yes/No That is the discussion isn't it.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi subbie, Modifying a known genome and implanting that cell is not creating life.No more than me taking a cabinet made by a specific cabinet company and modifying it and then calling it a new cabinet.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Quite true. That's why I said they're making progress and didn't say they've succeeded. No, but that would be a good way of learning how cabinets are put together if you wanted to learn how to do it yourself.

---

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Yes. No. No. Utter nonsense. Nonsense. But even if it were true it is unimportant and irrelevant.There is evidence of laws of physics, and we discover new ones all the time. Inserting some imaginary designer tells us nothing of value.The laws of physics that govern this universe did not exist prior to the expansion, they are a product of the expansion. Their is no evidence or reason to think they were given by some designer rather than the absolutely natural result of the expansion. No, of course not. Accidents do happen but there is no need of accidents to explain the laws of physics.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Hi WK, What would be your definition of information that is contained in DNA?You mentioned pattern just above.Would you agree that all pattern is not design by Nature or otherwise?Would you agree that Nature does have oraginizing properties?Would you agree that not all patterns are designed?Would you agree that all designs have patterns?What is the difference in a pattern and a design that is the question.The Luray Caverns in Virginia has stalagmites hanging from the ceiling and stalactites which build from the floor up. They have beautiful patterns formed totally naturally: nobody had to design that Cavern. It naturally happened.A tornado funnel cloud occurs naturally without anyone desiging it. All it takes is the right weather conditions.Snowflakes: every one is different, but nobody has to design a snowflake.Water + cold air + gravity + wind + time gives you snowflakes.In a cavern water + minerals + gravity + time = stalactites adn stalagmites.Hot air + cold air + moisture + time = tornados and hurricanes.These are governed by something called Chaos theory, which is the study of how order forms naturally without design.Some things that are designed.Music exists in two forms. The symboiic form of the notes on a piece of paper. And also in the physical form which is the vibration in the ear. They are equivalent but different.As you read this information on your computer screen it is the symbolic presentation of the code the processor is processing. So we have the symbolic and a reality.So in design there is a representation of the thing in addition to the thing itself.All information is based on language as you cannot symbolically represent something without language.Somebody has to create information.I created the post in which you are reading this information, it was transmitted over the internet. You can make as many exact copies as you desire of this information. You can print it, or store it on your hard drive the message will remain the same.But the information I see on my screen is the same information you see on your screen, so the message does not change whether it is printed or stored on a hard drive.Thus the information is separate from the media that it comes in.All information requires a thought process.I will stop here and let you correct my many mistakes. Which would require information to be added.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I'm saying that DNA replicates itself according to its molecular properties. The concept of "information" is redundant to the process. The structure of the DNA molecule comes from the structure of its parent molecule(s). That's what replication means. You'd be better off forgetting about information entirely and trying to understand the chemistry. As I have said, the only "information" involved is the structure of the molecule. Yes, it occurs naturally, like it does in every molecule, in every grain of sand. No, it doesn't require intelligence for hydrogen and oxygen to bond together in the only way they can to form water. It's the same for every molecule. No, lots of things have patterns without being designed, like salt crystals and water molecules and DNA molecules. It doesn't. DNA is just a molecule that can react with other molecules to form other molecules.

---

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can\'t find it.

Hi subbie, True of many but not for me.I am a contractor and for 30 years I designed cabinets and manfactured them in a cabinet shop.Therefore for me to modify a cabinet made by someone else would mean that I was stealing his/her design and making it my own by a slight modification. We call that infringment of a patten.So for them to create life they must supply the raw material design the cell and insert the information not modify existing information that has been provided by some other designer and inserting it in an existing cell designed by some other designer.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

My position has consistently been that crafted evidence applies to designed whereas it does not to things effected naturally by environs and elements alone. With few exceptions there is no gradient. For example observation soon distinguishes from a clovis point and stones perse, gravestones and granite rocks, slate boards and slate stone, etc. There is a tell tale symetry observable between a crafted American Indian point and pointed rocks. I've hunted and found primitive crafted points. Seldom does one even need pick up an ordinary point shaped rock to distinguish it from a worked rock. The same goes with a primitive rock fish sinker an American Indian meal grinding stone or an axe head.How much more, the paper clip. That it's intelligently designe would be a no brainer, regardless of whether one saw the first one ever or a box of them today.There's no sign of intelligent design in a common rock, but a living plant is rife with evidence of intelligence, The same goes with roof edge lined with icicles and and a tray of perfectly cubic refrigerator ice cubes which have been dumped on the ground.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hi jar Help me get this straight.The universe has not always existed.It did not begin to exist because of an accident.It was not made to begin to exist by an intelligent being.It is utter nonsense, that if it has not always existed in some form and it did not begin to exist out of non-existence for no reason and that it was not caused by an intelligent being, yet the universe exists.How did the universe begin to exist?The universe exists.
OR
At least we think it exists. If that is the case what exists? Then what controlled the expansion beginning with the start of the expansion?I still think an intelligent designer in control is the best answer.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Your thesis premise to this debate is that nothing is designed but all is derived naturally void of ID. This is about what point one distinguishes between intelligently designed and naturally designed. This thread essentially challenges IDists to put up or shut up, so to speak.Your camp denies all intelligently designed origins. Individual ideologies within our camp reveal varied degrees of intelligent designing, mine apparantly being among the greatest degree aired here.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Yes you have it straight. That is what science is examining. When we know maybe someone will tell you. Huh?See above. That is one of the questions that science is examining now. I know you think that but it is irrelevant and tells us nothing about what happened. Whether there was a designer or not simply doesn't matter, we still need to figure out how the designer did it.

---

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Hi Ringo, Why?Everybody else talks about it. Source Source Source SourceSeems like I am not the only one who needs their thinking corrected.These folks say there is information, instructions contained in DNA that is required for replication. Are you saying a grain of sand contains information of how to reproduce itself?Can a grain of sand process information? I have billions of cells that die each day. Those billions of cells are replaced each day. The new ones are not created by the dying ones but they contain the same information.How is that?God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."