When does design become intelligent? (AS OF 8/2/10 - CLOSING COMMENTS ONLY)

I'm not sure about what you're asking but:

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hi, Buzsaw. To "formalize" means to actually think it out and define it clearly, rather than to use it without being able to explain why it works.----- This completely undoes the entire point of your original statement that an alien could tell design from non-design. You can't back out now and say that the alien must have the time to develop the same intuitive, non-formalized sense of design and non-design.The point is for you to define design by something other than, "you can just tell." When, Buzz, can we confidently decide that some observed pattern is due to design?

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Hi subbie, Such as the bounce theory, or the string theory.That equalsThe universe existing in some form prior to this universe. Time is a concept of man devised to measure existence.Existence is. I don't suppose there was a creator.I know there was a creator.Science has proved there was a creator.The universe had a beginning to exist.ORIt has always existed in some form.Science says the universe began to exist 13.7 billion years ago.It could not exist without being created by my God or the god of science. Be it an instanton or whatever something had to create this universe if it began to exist.So I will go with the intelligent designer rather than believing in the story that has been told here over the last few years.You know the one where we don't know where the universe came from it just is. It did not appear out of non-existence. There was an instanton or some other particle that appeared in a non-existence vaccum and expanded into the universe we see today.That story doesn't make any sense at all.And I am the looney tune around here.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This is an assumption with no evidentiary basis.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Hi jar, The Bible version tells me a lot more than the scientific version I get around here tells me.I ask where did the universe come from?Best answer "we don't know".Other answers, "it just is". And "why can't it just be"?When you guys find the answer you will find God the intelligent designer and creator of this universe.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

No, time is a real thing, not just our subjective experience of the linearity of events. That's how the passage of time can be affected by speed and mass according to General Relativity. Causality is limited to within the scope of time because causality assumes precedence. And one event cannot precede another without the existence of time. Therefore, causality cannot apply to the beginning of the universe since it occurred outside of time.And an uncaused universe is much more parsimonious than an uncaused deity.

Possibly, but even more important, we'll know how it was done.

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Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Hi Ringo, But you said the grain of sand can not reproduce itself. Thus it does not pass the information in itself as DNA does.DNA can pass the information contained in it to a copy of itself. Because most of them are produced in the bone marrow.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

What's more, our answer will be based on evidence, so we can show it to other people, rather than expecting them to just take our word for it. Or the word of a handful of shepherds who died millennia ago.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

And I said that a salt crystal can reproduce itself. The DNA molecule is not unique. As I've said, it's all about the structure of the molecule. Every molecule has structure. Every molecule has "information".The topic is "When does design become intelligent?" The answer, as far as chemistry is concerned, is that even if molecules have a pattern, there is no intelligence involved.

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Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can\'t find it.

Hi crash, For there to be time existence is required. Time can not begin to exist if there is no existence. Just as the universe can not begin to exist unless there is existence.There is no way either time or the universe can begin to exist in or from non-existence.Therefore some intelligent designer had to exist for anything to have a place to exist. The eternal existence had to provide the place for time and the universe to exist in.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This is true. This is an unsupported assumption. This is another one.Edited by subbie, : TyopEdited by subbie, : *sigh*

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas JeffersonFor we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- PhatIt has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Hi jar, But I already know how it was done. God the intelligent designer explains it in the manuel.He even explains dark matter and dark energy but no one is interested. They just keep on looking.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Existence of what? Time begins to begin when the existence of the universe begins, just like that's the beginning of "left", "right", "up", "down", "length", "width", and "depth." Existence is not a predicate of time, it's commensurate with it. Why? What makes you even think that non-existence can exist? Maybe the universe exists because its non-existence is impossible. Therefore how? Please be specific - you've skipped a lot of steps.

I didn't mean to imply the same intuitive non-formalized sense of design as earth natives. I mean enough time to observe a variety of objects on our planet.Logically an alien would soon be able to distinguish a paper clip and things alive as designed and things like dirt, rocks, lakes, and icicles which are inanimate as undesigned, assuming, that is, that the alien is of sufficient intelligence to make such determinations, say at least as intelligent as earth humans.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.