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Author Topic:   Definition of Species
Huntard
Member (Idle past 401 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 91 of 450 (570214)
07-26-2010 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Big_Al35
07-26-2010 9:59 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Big_Al35 writes:

If you can't believe that fish evolved from monkeys, can you believe that monkeys evolved from fish?


Of course, since all evidence points in that direction.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 9:59 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 10:15 AM Huntard has responded

    
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 92 of 450 (570218)
07-26-2010 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Huntard
07-26-2010 10:08 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Huntard writes:

Of course, since all evidence points in that direction.

But the ToE states that monkeys didn't evolve from fish...but fish-like creatures.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Huntard, posted 07-26-2010 10:08 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Huntard, posted 07-26-2010 10:30 AM Big_Al35 has responded
 Message 102 by caffeine, posted 07-26-2010 11:58 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 401 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 93 of 450 (570219)
07-26-2010 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Big_Al35
07-26-2010 10:15 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Big_Al35 writes:

But the ToE states that monkeys didn't evolve from fish...but fish-like creatures.


You do this stuff on purpose don't you?

Ok, fine I should've corrected you on that in your previous post. There, happy now? I didn't correct a mistake you made.

It's still dumb to say that fish evolved from monkeys.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 10:15 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 10:36 AM Huntard has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 450 (570220)
07-26-2010 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Big_Al35
07-26-2010 9:59 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Big_Al35 writes:

Big_Al35 writes:

Modern day fish could also argue that they evolved from monkeys.

jar writes:

Huh? Sorry but exactly how would that work?

If you can't believe that fish evolved from monkeys, can you believe that monkeys evolved from fish?

It is not a matter of belief. It is a conclusion based on the evidence.

The evidence shows that there was life in the seas before any life on land. The evidence shows that there is some common fish ancestor(s) that made a transition to land. All amphibians and mammals are descended from those earlier critters.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 9:59 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

  
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 95 of 450 (570221)
07-26-2010 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Huntard
07-26-2010 10:30 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Huntard writes:

You do this stuff on purpose don't you?

So monkeys evolved from fish-like creatures?
Humans evolved from fish-like creatures?
Fish evolved from fish-like creatures?

Can anyone tell me what a fish-like creature is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Huntard, posted 07-26-2010 10:30 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Coyote, posted 07-26-2010 10:41 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 97 by Huntard, posted 07-26-2010 10:44 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 98 by jar, posted 07-26-2010 10:48 AM Big_Al35 has responded
 Message 103 by Blue Jay, posted 07-26-2010 6:21 PM Big_Al35 has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 96 of 450 (570223)
07-26-2010 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Big_Al35
07-26-2010 10:36 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Can anyone tell me what a fish-like creature is?

Why bother?

You have shown you have no interest in learning anything.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 10:36 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 401 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 97 of 450 (570224)
07-26-2010 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Big_Al35
07-26-2010 10:36 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Big_Al35 writes:

Can anyone tell me what a fish-like creature is?


We could, but you'd probably misrepresent or misinterpret it and ask another stupid question or make a dumb statement. So no, thanks.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 10:36 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 450 (570225)
07-26-2010 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Big_Al35
07-26-2010 10:36 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Big_Al35 writes:

Can anyone tell me what a fish-like creature is?

We can try.

A short sequence of some of the critters that existed during the transitional phase from water to land would be:

Eusthenopteron
Panderichthys
Tiktaalik
Acanthosega
Ichtheostega

These are all critters that show transitional feature, some traits common to land animals, others common to fish.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 10:36 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 11:05 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16344
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 99 of 450 (570228)
07-26-2010 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Big_Al35
07-26-2010 9:37 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Big_All35 writes:

Modern apes could equally argue that they evolved from human-like creatures.


If modern-day apes could argue at all, then they could argue that they evolved from human-like creatures - but they'd be wrong. Evolution doesn't have a direction but history does. We can figure out the order that events happened.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 9:37 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

  
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 100 of 450 (570229)
07-26-2010 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by jar
07-26-2010 10:48 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
jar writes:

These are all critters that show transitional feature, some traits common to land animals, others common to fish.

So would I be right in saying that none of the examples given are actually ancestors of modern day fish?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 07-26-2010 10:48 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 07-26-2010 11:24 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 101 of 450 (570230)
07-26-2010 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Big_Al35
07-26-2010 11:05 AM


Transitional critters
Big_Al35 writes:

So would I be right in saying that none of the examples given are actually ancestors of modern day fish?

Since you had asked for examples of fish-like critters I don't see how that question is even relevant.

Big_Al35 in Message 95 asks "Can anyone tell me what a fish-like creature is?"

The examples I listed are critters that have traits common to fish but also traits not seen in modern fish but seen in modern land animals.

Edited by jar, : change subtitle


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 11:05 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1624
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 102 of 450 (570232)
07-26-2010 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Big_Al35
07-26-2010 10:15 AM


Fish
But the ToE states that monkeys didn't evolve from fish...but fish-like creatures.

You do this stuff on purpose don't you?

Ok, fine I should've corrected you on that in your previous post. There, happy now? I didn't correct a mistake you made.

Under what silly definition of fish did monkeys not evolve from them? If we're defining 'fish' as synonomous with 'ray-finned fish' then monkeys didn't evolve from fish, but in this case lungfish aren't fish, sharks aren't fish and all manner of fossil fish groups aren't fish.

Of course monkeys evolved from fish. In a different post you asked what a 'fish-like creature' was. It's a creature like a fish. A fish is a scaly, aquatic vertebrate with fins. Monkeys, along with all other land vertebrates, evolved from scaly aquatic vertebrates with fins.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 10:15 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 804 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 103 of 450 (570251)
07-26-2010 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Big_Al35
07-26-2010 10:36 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Hi, Big Al.

Big_Al35 writes:

So monkeys evolved from fish-like creatures?
Humans evolved from fish-like creatures?
Fish evolved from fish-like creatures?

Can anyone tell me what a fish-like creature is?

A "fish-like creature" is another fish.

Like Caffeine said, monkeys and humans and modern fish all evolved from ancient fish. If you were to display the evolutionary history of fish as a tree diagram, you would see amphibians, reptiles and mammals forming a single branch sprouting out of the middle of the tree somewhere.

Some fish evolved legs (and eventually arms) from fins; while others evolved more kinds of fins from fins.

By the way, how can we relate this back to the definition of species (which is what we're supposed to be discussing here)?

Edited by Bluejay, : "qs" problem


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Big_Al35, posted 07-26-2010 10:36 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Big_Al35, posted 07-27-2010 6:45 AM Blue Jay has responded

  
Big_Al35
Member
Posts: 384
Joined: 06-02-2010


Message 104 of 450 (570345)
07-27-2010 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Blue Jay
07-26-2010 6:21 PM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Bluejay writes:

By the way, how can we relate this back to the definition of species (which is what we're supposed to be discussing here)?

The issue I am raising here is one of complexity. Dr Adequate argues that he is not more complex than say a lobster. Extrapolating this argument a monkey is not more complex than a fish. However, when I suggest that a fish might have evolved from a monkey you baulk at this idea. You can only see evolution going one way...ie from a fish to a monkey. This suggests to me that a monkey is more complex than a fish. If it wasn't then evolution, which is directionless, should have the capacity to go both ways.

Now if you suggested that a complex creature could evolve into a simpler creature where its very survival depended on it I might understand this. However, if I gave any example of this you would no doubt claim I was raving mad. I see huge holes in the logic being applied.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Blue Jay, posted 07-26-2010 6:21 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Huntard, posted 07-27-2010 7:15 AM Big_Al35 has responded
 Message 114 by jar, posted 07-27-2010 10:02 AM Big_Al35 has responded
 Message 116 by caffeine, posted 07-27-2010 10:09 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded
 Message 123 by Blue Jay, posted 07-27-2010 3:23 PM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 401 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 105 of 450 (570350)
07-27-2010 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Big_Al35
07-27-2010 6:45 AM


Re: Complexity of an organism
Big_Al35 writes:

However, when I suggest that a fish might have evolved from a monkey you baulk at this idea.


Only because the evidence shows that it happened the other way around.

You can only see evolution going one way...ie from a fish to a monkey.

Yes, the evidence only shows this.

This suggests to me that a monkey is more complex than a fish. If it wasn't then evolution, which is directionless, should have the capacity to go both ways.

It has, look at whales for example. Land animals "returning" to the sea. Of course, whales aren't fish, but it shows that evolution isn't bound to go in one driection.

Now if you suggested that a complex creature could evolve into a simpler creature where its very survival depended on it I might understand this. However, if I gave any example of this you would no doubt claim I was raving mad. I see huge holes in the logic being applied.

It's not about logic, it's about what the evidence shows. And the evidence shows that there were fish first, and monkeys later, there is no denying this.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Big_Al35, posted 07-27-2010 6:45 AM Big_Al35 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Big_Al35, posted 07-27-2010 7:32 AM Huntard has responded

    
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