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Author Topic:   Parables 101
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 121 of 229 (422197)
09-16-2007 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
09-09-2007 4:40 PM


No! Thats socialism, which I avoid like the plague!
How is that socialism? We're talking about a guy who pays every laborer the exact same wage, no matter how many hours they clock in.
And when it's pointed out that that's not exactly fair, he has a bitch-fit and complains "it's my money; I'll pay you as I see fit."
Never mind how self-defeating that guy is. Do you honestly think that he's ever going to find guys willing to put in a full day's work again, now that everybody knows that he'll pay the same amount for an hour's work?
At Safeway, I just got a raise to $16.35 an hour while the newbies are still hired in at $7.00.
But you're still getting paid by the hour. And if you work a whole day's work, and somebody else just fills in for an hour, you get paid for all 8 hours and he only gets paid for one.
This guy is paying by the day, and not pro-rating by the hour. That's pretty stupid, since the workers feel cheated and the employer is basically setting himself up for a labor shortage. He's going to have empty fields until the eleventh hour, when basically every worker in town is going to gather in the square, show up for an hour's work, and demand their denari.
We are smart enough to realize that not all employees should make $16.00+ an hour, but we also want to make sure that the wage is available for some of us.
There's nothing at all in the parable that suggests that he's rewarding experience and success. Instead, he's punishing hard work by cheating the men who showed up early in the morning for work, and rewarding laziness by paying the same amount to men who only worked an hour.
What do you think happens the next morning when he tries to round up the day's labor force? The square is empty until the eleventh hour, of course. Why would anybody work all day when they can work for an hour and get the exact same wage?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 09-09-2007 4:40 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 122 of 229 (422219)
09-16-2007 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Ihategod
09-16-2007 11:24 AM


Highestevolvedwhiteguy writes:
Do you think that God puts people in a jail for a time as this suggests or is this not literal? Sort of like a purgatory?
That misses the point of the parable. It's not an exact one-to-one parallel with the way God will judge us. It's an illustration of the principle:
quote:
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
The implication is that forgiveness must be sincere - i.e. instead of singling out one group to forgive, you should forgive everybody who has wronged you.
And don't use "forgiveness" as an excuse to take a jab at somebody you don't like.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 11:24 AM Ihategod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 9:12 PM ringo has replied

  
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 6029 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 123 of 229 (422335)
09-16-2007 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ringo
09-16-2007 1:07 PM


Why do you pretend to know everything? All your posts border on condescension. Well with that out of the way.
That misses the point of the parable. It's not an exact one-to-one parallel with the way God will judge us. It's an illustration of the principle:
quote:Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
The implication is that forgiveness must be sincere - i.e. instead of singling out one group to forgive, you should forgive everybody who has wronged you.
And don't use "forgiveness" as an excuse to take a jab at somebody you don't like.
I understand the underline meaning of the parable. I wanted to know where my question would lead. Could this parable be construed to suggest a purgatory?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 09-16-2007 1:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 09-16-2007 9:30 PM Ihategod has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 124 of 229 (422345)
09-16-2007 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Ihategod
09-16-2007 9:12 PM


Highestevolvedwhiteguy writes:
All your posts border on condescension.
That's because I never debate with the smart people.
Could this parable be construed to suggest a purgatory?
I don't think parables should be stretched to be all things to all men. They usually have one simple lesson. No need to read more than that into them.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Ihategod, posted 09-16-2007 9:12 PM Ihategod has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 07-27-2010 7:34 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 125 of 229 (570353)
07-27-2010 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by ringo
09-16-2007 9:30 PM


Parables 101 revisited
Ringo writes:
I don't think parables should be stretched to be all things to all men. They usually have one simple lesson. No need to read more than that into them.
It has been six years since I originally commented on these parables and I am intrigued by the way that many of my thoughts on them have changed, while many others have remained the same.
As for the parable of the workers, I have no problem with a Boss who decides what to pay everyone, as long as my pay is adequate for my own personal needs. What he pays you and how hard you work to earn it are irrelevant.
We recently had an old EvC member,Pelican, propose a new topic similar to this old one, and I thought it appropriate to bump my old topic and revisit the original parables.
To those who are reading this thread for the first time, keep in mind that my views have changed ever so slightly in the past six years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 09-16-2007 9:30 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 8:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 126 of 229 (570361)
07-27-2010 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Phat
07-27-2010 7:34 AM


Re: Parables 101 revisited
Yes, admin advised to post it here. I find the differing perspectives fascinating. The parables are by definition supposed to offer a moral or religious lesson. I hadn't heard this one before and neither had I heard the one you presented. I will google it and get back to you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 25:14-30 (King James Version)
For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On face value I would say the moral lesson is to cultivate moral obligation to those entrusted to your care unlike the master in the parable.
Does anyone perceive it differently?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 07-27-2010 7:34 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 07-27-2010 9:43 AM pelican has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 229 (570384)
07-27-2010 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by pelican
07-27-2010 8:11 AM


Re: Parables 101 revisited
pelican writes:
On face value I would say the moral lesson is to cultivate moral obligation to those entrusted to your care unlike the master in the parable.
Does anyone perceive it differently?
There have been many different interpretations over the years.
One is that we are charged use our abilities to make improvements.
BUT when you look at it in context, other possibilities have been suggested.
Remember, divisions such as chapters are a new invention, at the time these things were written this was not broken down into chapters, it was just one long manuscript.
This lesson actually starts at the end of what is now Chapter 24. There it points out that none of us know when the end may come, either our personal end or the Second Coming. We are told that we must live our charge as though each day was our last opportunity.
When you look at all of the parables in Matthew 24-25 there is a pattern, they all say that we cannot know what the future will bring, that we must be prepared, that each of us must do the best we can with what we are given, and that in judgment, professions of faith and worship, belief, just won't cut it.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 8:11 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 10:42 AM jar has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 128 of 229 (570402)
07-27-2010 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
10-09-2004 3:08 AM


NIVMatt 20:1-15 writes:
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. "About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went. "He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'"'Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them,'You also go and work in my vineyard.'
"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.' "The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.
When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner.'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.' "But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?
Phat writes:
Crashfrog and I did not see this parable the same way. I thought that the offer was fair because the ones hired first got paid what they were promised. To me, it did not matter. Crashfrog asserted that the value per hour was different and thus discriminatory for the early workers. It is interesting, because in my life now, I recently got a job with Safeway. Safeway has many old timers who have worked there for 30 or more years and are making top wage of $15.66 hourly. I was given the same wage because I had prior experience with another unionized chain. Some of the safeway people who are not yet at top wage thought that my promotion to top wage was unfair. It is a provision in the union handbook known as prior experience, however, so they have no argument. From a human perspective, I would agree with them if someone made more than me, but as to the fairness of it, why is it unfair? If we all worked at a grocery store and the janitor stood around for 7 out of 8 hours, (which they do) are we mad that they get paid for doing nothing while we must work to earn our pay? After all, we all make the same wage.
I realise your views may have changed since posting this but are they still concerned with money? I feel we normally relate to these parables according to our own experiences and I don't relate to any of the characters or the situation.
But what I see is that some workers were satisfied with their pay until they saw others getting a better deal. They complained of the others being equal (in pay) to them.
I don't think the parable reflects god's or Jesus' morals but reflects ours. It reflects who we are being, not what we are doing.
I believe the inner self or who we are being is what Jesus refers to as 'the kingdom of heaven'. Whoever or whatever you relate to in the parables is a reflection of you, or me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-09-2004 3:08 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2010 11:57 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 129 of 229 (570411)
07-27-2010 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
07-27-2010 9:43 AM


Re: Parables 101 revisited
jar writes:
When you look at all of the parables in Matthew 24-25 there is a pattern, they all say that we cannot know what the future will bring, that we must be prepared, that each of us must do the best we can with what we are given, and that in judgment, professions of faith and worship, belief, just won't cut it.
I know many believers substitute god for the master and humans as the servants but I don't see any possible reason to connect god with that of master or landowner in any of the parables.
When god isn't substituted for the master, it changes the meaning.
Also if Jesus meant god, why wouldn't he say "god?" He does on numerous other occasions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 07-27-2010 9:43 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 07-27-2010 10:51 AM pelican has replied
 Message 131 by ringo, posted 07-27-2010 11:13 AM pelican has replied
 Message 133 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-27-2010 11:59 AM pelican has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 229 (570414)
07-27-2010 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by pelican
07-27-2010 10:42 AM


Re: Parables 101 revisited
pelican writes:
I know many believers substitute god for the master and humans as the servants but I don't see any possible reason to connect god with that of master or landowner in any of the parables.
When god isn't substituted for the master, it changes the meaning.
Also if Jesus meant god, why wouldn't he say "god?" He does on numerous other occasions.
If you don't see it then that's fine.
One of the other interpretations of that and the parallel parable that ends Chapter 24 is that it was political commentary, that it was not God he was chastising but rather the priesthood.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 10:42 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 8:45 PM jar has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 131 of 229 (570421)
07-27-2010 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by pelican
07-27-2010 10:42 AM


Re: Parables 101 revisited
pelican writes:
When god isn't substituted for the master, it changes the meaning.
There doesn't always have to be one meaning that jumps out at you. Even if something does jump out at you, it doesn't hurt to look beyond the obvious.
Actually, that's part of what I take from the talents parable. We should always be asking ourselves, "Did I do all that I can do with what was given to me?"

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 10:42 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 8:48 PM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 132 of 229 (570431)
07-27-2010 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by pelican
07-27-2010 10:10 AM


I realise your views may have changed since posting this but are they still concerned with money? I feel we normally relate to these parables according to our own experiences and I don't relate to any of the characters or the situation.
But what I see is that some workers were satisfied with their pay until they saw others getting a better deal. They complained of the others being equal (in pay) to them.
I don't think the parable reflects god's or Jesus' morals but reflects ours. It reflects who we are being, not what we are doing.
The meaning seems plain enough to me:
* People who repent towards the end of an ill-spent life (the "eleventh hour", as the text says) get the same heavenly reward as those who were obedient to God all along.
* God can do that if he likes (it's his grace, after all).
* People who've spent their lives being pious shouldn't bitch and moan because those who repent at the eleventh hour get salvation on what they consider easy terms. After all, it's no skin off their nose if other people get into heaven too, and they themselves thought the deal that they took was fair or they wouldn't have taken it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 10:10 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 9:05 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 133 of 229 (570432)
07-27-2010 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by pelican
07-27-2010 10:42 AM


Re: Parables 101 revisited
I know many believers substitute god for the master and humans as the servants but I don't see any possible reason to connect god with that of master or landowner in any of the parables.
Well, it makes sense of them. They become statements of Christian theology rather than pointless little stories about people who make poor economic choices for no particular reason.
Also if Jesus meant god, why wouldn't he say "god?"
That's what makes them parables.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 10:42 AM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 134 of 229 (570573)
07-27-2010 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by jar
07-27-2010 10:51 AM


Re: Parables 101 revisited
Thanks for your responses, Jar. Maybe the parables are intended to mean different things to different people, especially as Jesus did not give an explanation. Although, many of the interpretations don't consider the author and where he was coming from.
As far as I know, Jesus was always advocating on behalf of the weak, vulnerable and innocent. Why would he not do the same with the parables?
Didn't he say, the meek shall inherit the earth? He didn't mean those pretending to be meek, I'm sure. In the parables, the meek are not heard but they are there. regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 07-27-2010 10:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 07-27-2010 8:55 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 135 of 229 (570574)
07-27-2010 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by ringo
07-27-2010 11:13 AM


Re: Parables 101 revisited
There doesn't always have to be one meaning that jumps out at you. Even if something does jump out at you, it doesn't hurt to look beyond the obvious.
I think that's obvious.
Actually, that's part of what I take from the talents parable. We should always be asking ourselves, "Did I do all that I can do with what was given to me?"
Why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ringo, posted 07-27-2010 11:13 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 07-27-2010 11:12 PM pelican has replied

  
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