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Author Topic:   Bolder-dash's very own little thread
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1741 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 46 of 109 (570601)
07-27-2010 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by crashfrog
07-27-2010 10:50 PM


Is it happening to every sebaceous gland on the creature? Or just one RIGHT at the corner of the eye? What is the change exactly?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 10:50 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 11:06 PM Bolder-dash has responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 109 (570604)
07-27-2010 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Bolder-dash
07-27-2010 10:56 PM


What is the change exactly?

Oh, what is the exact change? A mutation in developmental genes, most likely. Changes to body plan are usually the result of changes to the program of cell development and proliferation that occurs pre-natally.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-27-2010 10:56 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-27-2010 11:17 PM crashfrog has responded

CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 306
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 48 of 109 (570607)
07-27-2010 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Bolder-dash
07-27-2010 10:34 PM


Your question resolves to probabilities. You seem to think that the improbable is impossible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-27-2010 10:34 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1741 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 49 of 109 (570608)
07-27-2010 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by crashfrog
07-27-2010 11:06 PM


So start showing some examples. This is what I have been asking for all along.

Where are these random mutational changes that might make one particular sebaceous gland begin to secrete fluid onto your knee every time you get an itch there? Or how about a genetic mutation to a sebaceous gland that will allow you to squirt a deadly poison anytime a robber points a gun at you, sort of like spiderman; or at least like a spitting cobra?

For a theory that relies ENTIRELY on these type of processes to create every system on earth, you sure are lacking in real examples. Trillions upon trillions of these freak mutations needing to occur, and you have trouble finding any of them. Bizarre.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 11:06 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Vacate, posted 07-28-2010 12:18 AM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 12:33 AM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 61 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 2:57 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Vacate
Member (Idle past 2712 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 50 of 109 (570611)
07-28-2010 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Bolder-dash
07-27-2010 11:17 PM


Is there a topic anywhere?
So start showing some examples. This is what I have been asking for all along.

Examples of what exactly? So far you have asked for examples of mutations in the past, mutations in the present, and mutations upcoming in the future. Some on their own, some in series. Some producing random effects, some others at your discretion, and still others producing large (and small) changes. Mutations that could happen, did happen, and could never happen. You wish to be taken seriously? How about debating in good faith?

Now Mr. Gish, its apparent, to me at least, that you don't really want to talk about anything in particular regarding evolution. This is Coffee House so I suppose that you can run off at the mouth and it really doesn't matter. I applaud your efforts to restrict yourself to just one dishonest debate tactic, one less and you could be though of as simply misinformed.

From message 2 writes:

I love this thread already-because I can't be accused of being off topic here, now can I?

Nope, you can pretty much say anything you want. Odd how this all started because you felt you don't get to say your side, no martyrdom for you!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-27-2010 11:17 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 12:30 AM Vacate has responded

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1741 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 51 of 109 (570612)
07-28-2010 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Vacate
07-28-2010 12:18 AM


Re: Is there a topic anywhere?
Ha, that's what I have said? Do you want a response?

Ok. No its not!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Vacate, posted 07-28-2010 12:18 AM Vacate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Vacate, posted 07-28-2010 12:37 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 52 of 109 (570613)
07-28-2010 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Bolder-dash
07-27-2010 11:17 PM


Bolder-dash writes:

Where are these random mutational changes that might make one particular sebaceous gland begin to secrete fluid onto your knee every time you get an itch there? Or how about a genetic mutation to a sebaceous gland that will allow you to squirt a deadly poison anytime a robber points a gun at you, sort of like spiderman; or at least like a spitting cobra?

For a theory that relies ENTIRELY on these type of processes to create every system on earth, you sure are lacking in real examples.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question or maybe I'm misunderstanding evolution but you seem to be asking for examples of things that don't happen. And it seems to me that it has been explained to you a few posts back that those things don't happen. It seems pretty unlikely that a spitting-cobra modification would happen with just one mutation.

People are explaining to you that 2 + 2 = 4 and you're demanding examples where 2 + 2 = 5.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-27-2010 11:17 PM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 12:52 AM ringo has responded

Vacate
Member (Idle past 2712 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 53 of 109 (570614)
07-28-2010 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 12:30 AM


Re: Is there a topic anywhere?
Ha, that's what I have said?

Yes, If I provide quotes will you start debating in good faith?

Do you want a response?

Will it be productive and lead to something resembling an adult discussion?

Ok. No its not!

I didn't think so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 12:30 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1741 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 54 of 109 (570616)
07-28-2010 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
07-28-2010 12:33 AM


Right, it won't happen with one mutation. But what will that mutation be that gets something started? Remember, each of the steps have to be significant enough to allow some type of reproductive advantage.

So what kind of mutation gives a creature that was already exiting just fine, and finding food, and managing to reproduce for perhaps centuries, a new type of mutation that will begin a series of mutations that develop a brand new function. Say bats with echolocation. Go back in time, anywhere along the progression of this feature, and show how it is useful, all along its path to full functionality. Show some of the steps. Show some similar steps in modern creatures. Heck show anything.

Every, every, completed system, like a eye, or like spinning a web, or like sweat glands, or like lungs, they need many many unique mutations to work. So many that its almost impossible to imagine how many. And here, in real life, in real time, we can't see any of these unique mutations happening.

Suppose we are going to continue to evolve. We may eventually have six arms, and two heads, and can see gamma rays, and can hear the sounds of atoms colliding. When and where are these new features going to begin? How will they begin? Have these random mutations, that allow for these new unique features which produce reproductive advantages stopped? Don't you think someone with two heads, that can do calculus at the same time he is arc welding a building would have an advantage because they could earn two salaries at once, and impress the chicks, would have a great reproductive advantage? How would it start? Why haven't we seen such potentials?

The most fundamental point in all of this, is that as much as everyone of you evolutionists tries to claim the evidence abounds for your theory, you have this huge gaping gulf of trying to show how any of this happened, and simply saying that well, "who knows, we can't see it, but maybe..." is not very convincing.

You are making extraordinary claims about the world, you need to provide more than just a just so story in order to have this arrogant attitude that your theory is bullet-proof.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 12:33 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 12:58 AM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 1:04 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

subbie
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 55 of 109 (570619)
07-28-2010 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 12:52 AM


Remember, each of the steps have to be significant enough to allow some type of reproductive advantage.

No, they don't. Neutral mutations happen all the time that accumulate in populations. Deleterious mutations even get passed on from time to time if they're not too deleterious.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 12:52 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 1:03 AM subbie has responded

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1741 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 56 of 109 (570620)
07-28-2010 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by subbie
07-28-2010 12:58 AM


Its ok with me if you also want to name a few examples of what you prefer to call a "neutral" mutation that you see in modern creatures that you feel is suitable as a building block for a completely new system.

I don't care if you call it neutral, beneficial or deleterious, will it build something brand new? Examples. I know your side doesn't have much to work with, in terms of true empirical evidence-I am simply highlighting that fact.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 12:58 AM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Vacate, posted 07-28-2010 1:08 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 59 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 1:19 AM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 3:00 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 57 of 109 (570621)
07-28-2010 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 12:52 AM


Bolder-dash writes:

Remember, each of the steps have to be significant enough to allow some type of reproductive advantage.


Not really. Disadvantageous mutations will be selected out but benign mutations don't have to be selected in.

Bolder-dash writes:

Go back in time, anywhere along the progression of this feature, and show how it is useful, all along its path to full functionality.


Again, it doesn't have to be "useful" at every step. As long as it isn't too detrimental to survival, it can exist for generations without any clear "usefulness".

Stop trying to be clever and try to understand the basic principles first.

Edited by Ringo, : Turned an advantage into a disadvantage.


Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 12:52 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

Vacate
Member (Idle past 2712 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 58 of 109 (570622)
07-28-2010 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 1:03 AM


a few examples of what you prefer to call a "neutral" mutation that you see in modern creatures that you feel is suitable as a building block for a completely new system.

I know your side doesn't have much to work with, in terms of true empirical evidence-I am simply highlighting that fact.

So you plan to highlight the lack of empirical evidence by asking Subbie to make something up? How can anyone provide a modern example that will sometime in the future be a new system?

Keep it up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 1:03 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

subbie
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 59 of 109 (570623)
07-28-2010 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Bolder-dash
07-28-2010 1:03 AM


Its ok with me if you also want to name a few examples of what you prefer to call a "neutral" mutation that you see in modern creatures that you feel is suitable as a building block for a completely new system.

Sorry, can't. The ToE is very good with the past, and quite helpful with the present, but I'm not aware of anyone making reliable predictions about future evolutionary changes. I'll happily look at any examples that anyone else wants to post, but I've never heard of any.

What I will do, just for fun, is show you a past example that I'm sure you'll ignore. But what the heck, maybe there's a thinking person out there reading this who will learn when it's put in front of them.

This shows how jaw bones became bones in the ear.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 1:03 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-28-2010 2:47 AM subbie has responded

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 1741 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


(1)
Message 60 of 109 (570627)
07-28-2010 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by subbie
07-28-2010 1:19 AM


Yes, this is a very nice series of drawings you have shown me In fact I am very familiar with these drawings.

Unfortunately these drawings show absolutely no evidence for the mechanisms by which these changes occur, they also don't show why these mutations would have been beneficial in a population compared to the existing form (especially considering that if you are going to argue that it gave some small reproductive advantage by having some small almost imperceptible hearing advantage each step along the way, you also have to keep in mind, that in populations of species, there could be 100, maybe 1000 different things that decide an individuals reproductive success, with each advantage competing with another for fitness, COMPLICATED by the fact that the reproductive advantage in one short time frame could easily change in one or two generations, as environmental factors change) .

So if you want to claim that everyone of these changes were just random events, that also just so happen to help the animals get laid more, we are not even close.

Instead, if you wanted these drawing to match your theory, you would need to show a series of these animals with all kinds of imperfect jaw bones developing and dying, with some getting thicker in the parts where the opening should be, so it makes it harder to open it's mouth, and with some getting mutations that cause the jaw bones to come completely unhinged so that the jaws just flop around and make it harder to chew, and with some getting an eardrum on the top of its nose, and with some getting a cornea in the middle of the anvil. Now THAT would be random. What you are showing me looks completely guided and completely efficient-just like how we see life today. Where are the drawings of the ones who developed worse hearing? Where are all the dead end body parts within the same species?

I don't hear about people getting new bone growths on the side of their face, that provide any reproductive advantages-or even that are neutral for a few thousand generations. Do you?

One thing I concede we can possibly conclude from these drawings, if they even represent reality at all, some animals have better hearing than others.

If someone said to you, what would guided change look like to you-isn't this what you think it would look like?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 1:19 AM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by caffeine, posted 07-28-2010 4:07 AM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 72 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 10:00 AM Bolder-dash has responded

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