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Author
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Topic: Parables 101
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 127 of 229 (570384)
07-27-2010 9:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 126 by pelican
07-27-2010 8:11 AM
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Re: Parables 101 revisited
pelican writes: On face value I would say the moral lesson is to cultivate moral obligation to those entrusted to your care unlike the master in the parable. Does anyone perceive it differently? There have been many different interpretations over the years. One is that we are charged use our abilities to make improvements. BUT when you look at it in context, other possibilities have been suggested. Remember, divisions such as chapters are a new invention, at the time these things were written this was not broken down into chapters, it was just one long manuscript. This lesson actually starts at the end of what is now Chapter 24. There it points out that none of us know when the end may come, either our personal end or the Second Coming. We are told that we must live our charge as though each day was our last opportunity. When you look at all of the parables in Matthew 24-25 there is a pattern, they all say that we cannot know what the future will bring, that we must be prepared, that each of us must do the best we can with what we are given, and that in judgment, professions of faith and worship, belief, just won't cut it.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 126 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 8:11 AM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 129 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 10:42 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 130 of 229 (570414)
07-27-2010 10:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 129 by pelican
07-27-2010 10:42 AM
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Re: Parables 101 revisited
pelican writes: I know many believers substitute god for the master and humans as the servants but I don't see any possible reason to connect god with that of master or landowner in any of the parables. When god isn't substituted for the master, it changes the meaning. Also if Jesus meant god, why wouldn't he say "god?" He does on numerous other occasions. If you don't see it then that's fine. One of the other interpretations of that and the parallel parable that ends Chapter 24 is that it was political commentary, that it was not God he was chastising but rather the priesthood.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 129 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 10:42 AM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 134 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 8:45 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 136 of 229 (570575)
07-27-2010 8:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 134 by pelican
07-27-2010 8:45 PM
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Re: Parables 101 revisited
The parables cover a broad subject area. Nor does any one parable carry the sum of the lessons Jesus taught. But let me try to address your issue about the meek. Being meek does not mean being helpless. Even the meek should use the talents (both monetary and 'talent') that they have, try to do the best they can, try to life the charge. One of the problems I have with so much of Christianity today is the idea that Christians are some chosen people, a people given some special place. The meek may well inherit the earth, but that doesn't mean they don't have to work for it.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 134 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 8:45 PM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 138 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 9:27 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 139 of 229 (570585)
07-27-2010 10:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 138 by pelican
07-27-2010 9:27 PM
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Re: Parables 101 revisited
pelican writes: Being meek is being more helpless than you. Didn't Jesus teach, 'what you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me'? Most interpretations are in conflict with this. It doesn't make sense to change the narrators character to suit your own. Jesus was genuine and sincere. For the least of these. Where is the conflict. Meek originally meant kind or gentle, certainly not helpless. We are expected to use the talents given us.
pelican writes: I believe everyone does what they can to survive in the only way they know how, right or wrong. I think Jesus clearly demonstrates this in his parables. He makes the point(s) of how we live our lives and what we do to survive. But he tells us there is nothing we have to do to survive. God will provide. We just have choices, which include who we are being as well as what we are doing. But the message is not that you should just do what is needed for YOU to survive. The message is that we are but stewards. As is said at the offering "Of thine own have we given thee". We are expected to use the gifts we have been given, whether ten talents, five talents or just one talent to increase, to help, to do for the least of these.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 138 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 9:27 PM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 140 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 10:26 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 141 of 229 (570598)
07-27-2010 10:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 140 by pelican
07-27-2010 10:26 PM
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Re: Parables 101 revisited
pelican writes: Don't you see the servant with one talent as the least of these? All three were the least of these.
pelican writes: Talent in the parable represents money and the servants in each case did their best according to their abilities. Didn't the master admit that he does not do his best by reaping what he has not sown? Is that the lesson Jesus would have us learn? Talents can mean money or strength or brains or health or speed or knowledge or personality or ... And no, the servant with one talent did nothing. No, the Master expects us to do our best.
pelican writes: Was the master taking more than he needed to survive and leaving the least of his servants with nothing? We have no idea what the servants were left with. BUT, as I mentioned up thread, one of the interpretations is that it is political commentary and in the parable Jesus is criticizing the master, the priests. I don't think that really fits in with the whole string of parables there. AbE: submissive is a modern meaning for meek. Edited by jar, : re:meek Edited by jar, : put it in the right place
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 140 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 10:26 PM | | pelican has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 150 of 229 (570666)
07-28-2010 9:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 142 by pelican
07-27-2010 11:02 PM
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Re: Parables 101 revisited
pelican writes: jar writes: All three were the least of these. All three were servants but the one with one talent was the least of them in every way. He was afraid. He didn't know how to increase his masters' abundance. He wasn't smart enough to please his master. We don't know how the other two increased their talents. It could have been by fair or by foul means. And the servant with but one talent failed. Bringing up far or foul means for the other two is simply unwarranted, we just aren't given that information nor is it even relevant to the parable.
pelican writes: jar writes: Talents can mean money or strength or brains or health or speed or knowledge or personality or ... What did Jesus mean by talent in the context of the parable? Could any of these alternatives be buried in the ground? Sure. When you don't use the talent that you were given you might as well bury it in the ground.
pelican writes: jar writes: And no, the servant with one talent did nothing. No, the Master expects us to do our best.
Was the master doing his best? Since the parable is not about the master (there are several of those as well) we can't answer that question. Go back and look again at this section, beginning at Matthew 24:45. This is a whole series of parables centered on the idea that we each much do our duty. There is the contrast between the servant left in charge in the masters absence, then the Ten Virgins, this one (the Talents) and it ends with the Sheep and the Goats. The one common thread throughout all of them is that you will be judged based on your behavior.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 142 by pelican, posted 07-27-2010 11:02 PM | | pelican has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 153 of 229 (570685)
07-28-2010 9:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 151 by pelican
07-28-2010 9:43 AM
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Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes: It contains punishment and reward but did jesus mean to teach us how to get rewards or be punished? {an aside: as a fountain pen user and collector it is really hard for me to type "Pelikan" with a c}
Look at the parables.
Mat 24 writes: 45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Virgins writes: 1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. 6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' 7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' 9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.' 10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. 11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!' 12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' Sheep and goats writes: 31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." In each you find a charge, reward and punishment. The parable of the Talents fits right in with each of the others.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 151 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 9:43 AM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 154 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 10:26 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 155 of 229 (570691)
07-28-2010 10:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 154 by pelican
07-28-2010 10:26 AM
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Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes: yes I agreed that they contain punishment and reward but is that what Jesus was teaching? Yes, in this case it is exactly what Jesus is teaching.
pelican writes: In god's kingdom the master does not have precedent over the servant. Only the behaviour is judged. Huh? What does precedence have to do with any of the parables? Edited by jar, : fix word
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 154 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 10:26 AM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 156 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 10:51 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 157 of 229 (570699)
07-28-2010 11:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 156 by pelican
07-28-2010 10:51 AM
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Re: The Parable of the Talents
Possibly but irrelevant to the parables.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 10:51 AM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 163 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 9:17 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 165 of 229 (570786)
07-28-2010 9:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 163 by pelican
07-28-2010 9:17 PM
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Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes: This doesn't mean some of us and the master clearly did not live up to those expectations. In this case the master would be represented as a goat. You're mixing parables. It's not a Chinese restaurant where you get to pick one from column one and two from column two. Each parable stands on it's own. There is nothing in any of the four parables that tells us anything about how the master in the Talents parable would be judged or even if he would be judged. In fact in the parable of the Talents the master is the judge.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 163 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 9:17 PM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 170 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 10:17 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 167 of 229 (570794)
07-28-2010 9:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 166 by pelican
07-28-2010 9:40 PM
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Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes: In the parable, the master judges, punishes and rewards. In the following paragraph "Judgement", it is god who punishes and rewards but for completely different reasons. Huh? Here is the parable of the Talents.
quote:
The Parable of the Talents
14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money. 19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.' 21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!' 22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.' 23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!' 24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.' 26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest. 28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Nowhere in there is God directly mentioned.
pelican writes: Is the master morally responsible and is this what god judges us on? In the parable the only judge is the master. There is no clue in there if or how the master will be judged.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 166 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 9:40 PM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 168 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 10:01 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 171 of 229 (570802)
07-28-2010 10:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 168 by pelican
07-28-2010 10:01 PM
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Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes: This is the judgement following the parable. No, that's another parable, the parable of the Sheep and Goats. Don't mix parables.
pelican writes: There is a great disparity between how the master judges and how jesus and god judge. We all, including the masters, will be eventually judged by god's criteria not our own. If you substitute the master and servant with the sheep and the goat, which is which? You can't do that. In the parable of Faithful and Wise servant it is the Master who decides the criteria. In the parable of the Virgins it is the Bridegroom that decides. In the parable of the Talents the Master is the judge and decides the criteria. In the parable of the Sheep and Goats Jesus is the judge and decides the criteria. The common theme in all four of the parables though is that we will be judged based on how we perform, what we do.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 10:01 PM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 172 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 11:03 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 173 of 229 (570820)
07-28-2010 11:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 172 by pelican
07-28-2010 11:03 PM
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Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes: Well who do you think jesus was referring to as sheep or goats? I believe the Goats in that parable would be found among what we call Christians today, particularly Biblical Christians and all the Televangelists and their followers. There may be a few Christians in with the Sheep but mostly they will likely be Atheists, Agnostics, Taoists, Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Animists, Hindus, Sikhs and folk from other religions.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 172 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 11:03 PM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 174 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 11:51 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 187 of 229 (570901)
07-29-2010 11:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 174 by pelican
07-28-2010 11:51 PM
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Re: Sheep and Goats
pelican writes: jar writes: I believe the Goats in that parable would be found among what we call Christians today, particularly Biblical Christians and all the Televangelists and their followers. There may be a few Christians in with the Sheep but mostly they will likely be Atheists, Agnostics, Taoists, Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Animists, Hindus, Sikhs and folk from other religions.
I must have missed that but it just about covers everyone. I thought he was referring to goats as those who do not treat others well and the sheep as those who do, regardless of religion or no religion. Go back and look at the Sheep and Goats parable in Matthew 25, it's one of the most important lessons in the Bible. Let's parse it together.
quote:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
So everyone is gathered, all nations, all beliefs.
quote:
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Now the Sheep are surprised that he says they did anything for him. They know they never did anything for Jesus. Note the emphasis. This is not the reply you would expect from a follower. Now look at the Goats.
quote:
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Note the subtle difference in the replies. The Goats say, "Hey bro, when did we ever fail to help you?" That is the reply of someone who was a follower, one you can say, "When did we not help you?" The point is that many of the folk out there that spend their lives professing love of God and Jesus, doing for Jesus, the Christian followers the ones that would do anything FOR Jesus, miss the point. It is an explanation of the Great Commandment Love God and love others as you love yourself. The way you love God is not doing for God, it is doing for others. When we get sorted, all the secular folk that paid high taxes for a welfare system to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, educate the children will surely be among the Sheep. If we look at the worlds population, there are far more folk out there of all religions that will fall under the criteria of Sheep than there will be Christians. Sure there will be Christians in both camps, but the common idea that the split is between believers and non-believers is wrong. When we look at the makeup of Sheep and Goats, the division will not be as so many Christians seem to think. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and fix sub-title
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 174 by pelican, posted 07-28-2010 11:51 PM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 189 by pelican, posted 07-29-2010 10:46 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 193 of 229 (571484)
07-31-2010 9:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 192 by pelican
07-31-2010 9:50 PM
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Re: The Parable of the Talents
pelican writes: Ok the consensus of opinion seems to be that Jesus was teaching "it is wrong to not use our god given talents." Is this how Christians see it and do they apply it in their lives? It's sure not as popular as "Let go and let god" or "Not perfected, only saved" or all the other cop outs.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 192 by pelican, posted 07-31-2010 9:50 PM | | pelican has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 194 by pelican, posted 07-31-2010 10:11 PM | | jar has replied |
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