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Author | Topic: Parables 101 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
purpledawn writes: Perhaps the parable has taught you without need of my interpretation. My interpretation does not take anything away from what the traditional teaching on this parable is. You said you were going to treat this as a Bible Study.Jesus was very clear how the parable described the different types of hearing. I do not understand how your thoughts on wisdom are associated with the parable. How does the parable help me to visualize your teaching on wisdom? One learns, in a Bible study, from allowing Gods Spirit----Gods wisdom to open their eyes and heart.We also learn through communion---a spiritual union in common because of Christ. Gods Spirit is the teacher. It is not forbidden, however, for you or I to voice our interpretations as to the meanings gleaned from the scripture. It has been shown to me at least that when people are gathered for a Bible study and the focus is on being taught by the Spirit of God rather than on any human legalistic philosophy lesson which glorifies the intellect and shows one guy to be the Hebrew scholar, everyone learns something.What do we as believers learn? That God has a message. That His message is simple yet profound. This message is that God wants to have a relationship with us. That God wants us to trust in Him with our hearts and to lean not on our own human understanding. Not to be "duped" by religion or mans agenda. Not to be ignorant of the wonder of our own mind. What, then? To know that we as humans were created to have a relationship with God. That we cannot "figure it out" without Him for there is no purpose without His Spirit---His communion with us. My apology to Atheists. This was a Bible study and not a human philosophy course. The philosophy of the Bible is simple:1) Love God. Allow Him to run the show. Not human wisdom. 2) Live His love, not His judgment. We are NOT God. 3) He is alive and personal.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
crashfrog writes: People who do the same "amount" of work should get paid the same. Obviously, in the real world, that doesn't always work, but we should strive for that, don't you think? Equal pay for equal work, right? At the grocery store, some people make twice what others make, and there are certain types of work that are performed equally by both. The pay scale is based on years of service to the company. Its not exactly fair, but either1) The company should raise everyone to similar levels...(unlikely) 2) The company should cut the higher paid rates next contract (which we will fight, of course) I think P.D. had a good explanation of how her father did it and of how things could be done, however. How do we justify paying a C.E.O. millions of dollars? THAT is where the unfairness really shines through, IMHO.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
NIV writes: Luke 10:25-37-- On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus.Phat writes: "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" typical lawyer! He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" Phat writes: The "lawyer" seeks a loophole! In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." This parable confounded the wisdom of the "expert" in the law....as it implied that not only should Holy men like priests and levites be expected to act accordingly but that even the "least of these" (a Samaritan) could inherit eternal life by behaving accordingly.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You guys argue about the most basic stuff!
Iano is right theoretically in that not everyone (or anyone, perhaps) always helps out every single needy person within radius of our perception. I think he is trying to hint at salvation by grace since the law can never be followed perfectly. Yet "doing our best" is not an on again off again reaction. How many people do any of us know who would give you the shirt off their backs one day and not give you the time of day another day? Behavior leads to more behavior of similar effect. Whether by grace or by internal command, all of us have behaviors that can be improved. Jesus never spoke of salvation by grace alone through faith alone because his audience was Jewish believers! In context, the expert in the law had to be shown that there was the possibility of doing what was in his power to do.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Ringo, its interesting to read the various opinions on this parable. On the one hand, we have your basic belief that "doing our best" and observing the behaviors taught by Jesus is the summation of the Christian walk.
2) Many commentaries, such as this one indicate that the lesson is that perfect love cannot be done by humans. Perhaps a compromise to these two dichotomies is that it is the effort that counts. I don't think that the summation of the effort is in merely doing our best. I believe that acknowledgement of the authority of the teacher (Jesus) and the realization that we do not usually do likewise are indicative of our need for a savior. I realize that behavior is more important than mere profession, but how many of us have the heart within us to be loving to our neighbors (everyone) as to ourselves? The entire capitalist system would collapse if we collectively did such a thing. This message has been edited by Phat, 05-08-2006 11:44 AM
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Bishop Spong, whom I respect but who is extremely controversial among the traditional christianity that I matured in, says
Spong writes: I can appreciate the fully human,great example part of Jesus life that you use to encourage behavorism and action among all people.
The next issue we have to face is that of determining whether the supernatural understanding of God is essential to Christianity. I do not think it is. Furthermore, I do not think that the mythological framework in which Jesus has been traditionally understood, as God's divine invasion of this world to rescue the fallen, is either original or accurate, to say nothing about its being an adequate way to understand the meaning of the Christ. Indeed, I think that understanding of Jesus is exactly backwards. It was because Jesus was fully human that people experienced in him all that God means. It will take the Christian Church at least another century or two to overcome the way we have distorted God and to rid ourselves of the primitive images with which we have surrounded Jesus; but it will happen and, when it does, Christianity will experience a burst of new life. What is harder for me to accept is what Spong says when he states: Spong writes: I see Christianity at its heart as deeply humanistic. The core doctrine of the Christian faith suggests that God is revealed through a human life. Jesus states his purpose in John's gospel to be that of giving life abundantly. So I see secular humanism as the residual remains of Christianity once the supernatural elements have been removed. I find it impossible to conceive of Christianity as mere philosophy devoid of supernatural elements. I suppose it is because I view God as my rescuer and reedemer and not a good teacher who expects me to do it all..(Indeed, I think it impossible)
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
NIV writes: Luke 16:1-9-- Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. So he called him in and asked him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.'"The manager said to himself, 'What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg- I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.' "So he called in each one of his master's debtors. He asked the first, 'How much do you owe my master?' "'Eight hundred gallons of olive oil,' he replied. "The manager told him, 'Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred.' "Then he asked the second, 'And how much do you owe?' "'A thousand bushels of wheat,' he replied. "He told him, 'Take your bill and make it eight hundred.' "The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings. Use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves??? Is this like bribing folks into Heaven?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Crashfrog writes: No! Thats socialism, which I avoid like the plague! The whole idea is to get paid more than the minimum....thats what an upwardly mobile lifestyle is all about. At Safeway, I just got a raise to $16.35 an hour while the newbies are still hired in at $7.00. People who do the same "amount" of work should get paid the same. Obviously, in the real world, that doesn't always work, but we should strive for that, don't you think? We are smart enough to realize that not all employees should make $16.00+ an hour, but we also want to make sure that the wage is available for some of us. Otherwise, Safeway would be like WalMart.(Great for the American consumer yet horrible for the American Worker)
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You mean that I have to surrender even if the Boss pays all the slackers the same as He pays me?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Ringo writes:
It has been six years since I originally commented on these parables and I am intrigued by the way that many of my thoughts on them have changed, while many others have remained the same. I don't think parables should be stretched to be all things to all men. They usually have one simple lesson. No need to read more than that into them. As for the parable of the workers, I have no problem with a Boss who decides what to pay everyone, as long as my pay is adequate for my own personal needs. What he pays you and how hard you work to earn it are irrelevant. We recently had an old EvC member,Pelican, propose a new topic similar to this old one, and I thought it appropriate to bump my old topic and revisit the original parables. To those who are reading this thread for the first time, keep in mind that my views have changed ever so slightly in the past six years.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: This lesson actually starts at the end of what is now Chapter 24. There it points out that none of us know when the end may come, either our personal end or the Second Coming. We are told that we must live our charge as though each day was our last opportunity. When you look at all of the parables in Matthew 24-25 there is a pattern, they all say that we cannot know what the future will bring, that we must be prepared, that each of us must do the best we can with what we are given, and that in judgment, professions of faith and worship, belief, just won't cut it. That is often a controversial view that you have, jar. Some say that trusting in Jesus is EVERYTHING and that doing the best that we can won't cut it. But thats another topic....
Pelican writes: Yes, quite honestly, I would protest if others received a better deal than I. Others doing the same exact work as I, that is. Ironically, I dont protest when I receive a better deal than they, since I justify it based on my longevity. So too would the workers hired early in the day, although it was wisely pointed out that their workload would decrease if more were hired later in the day. Food for thought!
I realise your views may have changed since posting this but are they still concerned with money? I feel we normally relate to these parables according to our own experiences and I don't relate to any of the characters or the situation. But what I see is that some workers were satisfied with their pay until they saw others getting a better deal. They complained of the others being equal (in pay) to them. Ringo writes: *sigh* Yes, yes, I know. The only issue I have is WHO determines all I can or should do?
We should always be asking ourselves, "Did I do all that I can do with what was given to me?" jar writes: I have no problem with the meek getting their fair share, though I balk at having to surrender some of mine. In the parable, everyone received the SAME wage, which I suppose is fairer than the meek coming along and grabbing better deals, regardless how hard they work. We Christians may not be special, but we certainly dont deserve being goats.
One of the problems I have with so much of Christianity today is the idea that Christians are some chosen people, a people given some special place. The meek may well inherit the earth, but that doesn't mean they don't have to work for it. Pelican writes: I agree. If God treats everyone the same, it seems fairer to me than accepting either the chosen or the hardest workers.
I believe everyone does what they can to survive in the only way they know how, right or wrong. I think Jesus clearly demonstrates this in his parables. He makes the point(s) of how we live our lives and what we do to survive. But he tells us there is nothing we have to do to survive. God will provide. We just have choices, which include who we are being as well as what we are doing. jar writes: Talents can mean money or strength or brains or health or speed or knowledge or personality or ... And no, the servant with one talent did nothing. No, the Master expects us to do our best. The workers hired early in the day were expected to harvest a full field for an agreed upon sum. The master later brought other workers in to help. The workload was actually shared, and the ones hired earliest thus had less to be responsible for. They should have thanked the master for helping them rather than cursing those who recieved the same wage.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Luke 16:1-9,NIV writes: This parable blew me away when I first read it. Does it mean that we are to strike deals with whomever can help us? Even as a Christian, I will strike a deal with either the union or my employer, whichever helps me to get the wages i deserve. Perhaps the point of the parable, however, is that it is friends and contacts who are important...not wages.
Jesus told his disciples: "There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. So he called him in and asked him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.'"The manager said to himself, 'What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg- I know what I'll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.' "So he called in each one of his master's debtors. He asked the first, 'How much do you owe my master?' "'Eight hundred gallons of olive oil,' he replied. "The manager told him, 'Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred.' "Then he asked the second, 'And how much do you owe?' "'A thousand bushels of wheat,' he replied. "He told him, 'Take your bill and make it eight hundred.' "The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Yes, but first one has to have worldly wealth. A nation of minimum wage workers (the so called jobs that are being created) cant help themselves, much less the neighbors. Could it mean that you are to use worldly wealth here to help others? And I know you, jar. You will probably reply something similar to this:
hypthetical writes: Bullshit. The U.S. is one of the wealthiest nations on earth. It is our charge to do what we can for the rest of the world. And I would reply that the world seems to be doing fine taking our jobs and the money that once belonged to us...on its own... Of course, we are charged to feed and clothe the poor. Returning to the Shrewd Manager.....
jar writes: no, they can only offer concrete dwellings. My initial point was that it is not selfish for me to shrewdly do what I can to gain wealth for myself while I can. The issue is what I do with my wealth.
Can worldly friends offer eternal dwellings?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: If you believe that Somebody is going to judge you some day, then YOU are the one who has to defend YOURSELF in front of that judge. So lets talk about the Widow with two mites.
Luke 21:1-4 writes: And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. 3 So He said, "Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; 4 for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had."NKJV Are we in fact *all* commanded to do likewise? What does the parable imply?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I appreciate you charging me to think more deeply about what I write. It is a good exercise.
jar writes: Good point.
Remember, divisions such as chapters are a new invention, at the time these things were written this was not broken down into chapters, it was just one long manuscript. This lesson actually starts at the end of what is now Chapter 24. There it points out that none of us know when the end may come, either our personal end or the Second Coming. We are told that we must live our charge as though each day was our last opportunity. When you look at all of the parables in Matthew 24-25 there is a pattern, they all say that we cannot know what the future will bring, that we must be prepared, that each of us must do the best we can with what we are given, and that in judgment, professions of faith and worship, belief, just won't cut it.jar writes: Yes. And the house that was hopefully given to me (unless we have to sell it to take care of Mom) is a sancuary where my 60 year old diabetic body can rest and recuperate so that I may be of value to myself and others.
We are expected to use the talents given us.jar writes: I cant argue with that.
But the message is not that you should just do what is needed for YOU to survive. The message is that we are but stewards. As is said at the offering "Of thine own have we given thee". We are expected to use the gifts we have been given, whether ten talents, five talents or just one talent to increase, to help, to do for the least of these.jar writes: I seek to expand my talent through prayer, fasting, introspection and ultimately action.
When you don't use the talent that you were given you might as well bury it in the ground.jar writes: My behavior does include prayer. Go back and look again at this section, beginning at Matthew 24:45. This is a whole series of parables centered on the idea that we each much do our duty. There is the contrast between the servant left in charge in the masters absence, then the Ten Virgins, this one (the Talents) and it ends with the Sheep and the Goats. The one common thread throughout all of them is that you will be judged based on your behavior. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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