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Author
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Topic: Circular reasoning
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 6 of 142 (569869)
07-24-2010 11:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Pauline
07-20-2010 3:08 PM
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Ultimate authority?
Pauline writes: But here's the deal: I argue that it is impossible to ascribe ultimate authority to someone/something without said someone/something declaring itself the ultimate authority. HUH? So because Zeus declares himself the ultimate authority Zeus is the ultimate authority?
Pauline writes: For instance, Christians declare God to the ultimate authority; Rationalists declare reason to be the ultimate authority, Some but not all atheists declare science to be the ultimate authority. HUH? I'm sorry but all I see in your post is word salad. When you talk about some "Ultimate Authority" it really would help if you specified what subject the judgment is being made. For example, when considering whether or not there was some Noach Flood the ultimate authority is science. When considering evolution, the ultimate authority is science. Of course, those are not an atheist-Christian issue, they are issues of fact. To claim that God is the ultimate authority on whether or not there was a flood like the ones described in the Noah fable is just silly. To claim that some anthology of anthologies written thousands of years ago is the ultimate authority on how the diversity of life we see around us is simply silly. Now if you want to discuss the Christian concept of judgment related to salvation, then it is reasonable to claim that God is the ultimate authority on whether someone is saved or not.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Pauline, posted 07-20-2010 3:08 PM | | Pauline has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 9 of 142 (569890)
07-24-2010 3:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Pauline
07-24-2010 2:45 PM
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Pauline writes: jar writes: When you talk about some "Ultimate Authority" it really would help if you specified what subject the judgment is being made. Why? There is absolutely no need to specify the judgement being made. An ultimate authority, assuming one exists, is ultimate irrespective of the judgement in question... be it the flood, be it the diversity of life..be it anything. Why? Why not judge each incidence using the best methods available?
Pauline writes: jar writes: For example, when considering whether or not there was some Noach Flood the ultimate authority is science. When considering evolution, the ultimate authority is science...Now if you want to discuss the Christian concept of judgment related to salvation, then it is reasonable to claim that God is the ultimate authority on whether someone is saved or not. Do you not see that you are contradicting yourself? How can there be two "ultimate authorities"? Isn't that a contradiction of the word "ultimate"? Nope. It is simply acknowledging reality.
Pauline writes: jar writes: To claim that God is the ultimate authority on whether or not there was a flood like the ones described in the Noah fable is just silly. To claim that some anthology of anthologies written thousands of years ago is the ultimate authority on how the diversity of life we see around us is simply silly. Then, to claim that God saves people from hell is also equally silly. Huh? Now granted no one alive has a clue whether or not there is an afterlife or if anyone is saved, but, if there is an afterlife as imagined by the Christian religion, then the question of who is saved and who is not saved is determined by God as the ultimate authority for that issue.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 2:45 PM | | Pauline has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 10 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 3:30 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 13 of 142 (569895)
07-24-2010 3:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Pauline
07-24-2010 3:30 PM
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Pauline writes: jar writes: Why? Why not judge each incidence using the best methods available? So use God for judging matters of spirituality and science for judging matters of fact and reality? What if the are at disagreement with each other? Then, surely you look for who is the ultimate authority if there is one, yes? This is of course if you treat God like He wants to be treated, not like just another spiritual guru. When there is a disagreement you look at the evidence, you do not look to authority.
Pauline writes: jar writes: Huh? Now granted no one alive has a clue whether or not there is an afterlife or if anyone is saved, but, if there is an afterlife as imagined by the Christian religion, then the question of who is saved and who is not saved is determined by God as the ultimate authority for that issue. If you count my OP as word salad, then let me let you know that this is theology salad. May I point out why? 1. The Christian faith does not "imagine" an afterlife. it states that there is one. (Not 'there must be', but 'there is') 2. The Christian faith counts God as the ultimate authority for everything single conceivable issue...and not only matters of spirituality and afterlife. I'm sorry but that is simply not true. Do you know anything about Christianity? Christianity makes no such claims. Have you ever even read the basics? Consider the Nicene Creed. It lists beliefs. Christians, and I am a Christian, believe that there is an afterlife, but is simply a belief.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 3:30 PM | | Pauline has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 4:39 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 17 of 142 (569909)
07-24-2010 5:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Pauline
07-24-2010 4:39 PM
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Pauline writes: jar writes: When there is a disagreement you look at the evidence, you do not look to authority. The authority you are looking to in this case is evidence! Which makes it your ultimate authority. No, it makes it...wait for it....wait for it...evidence.
Pauline writes: jar writes: I'm sorry but that is simply not true. Do you know anything about Christianity? Christianity makes no such claims. Have you ever even read the basics? Sorry. You should've mentioned to me at the beginning that we were talking about *your* version of Christianity. Which, I have no incentive to talk about that. If you want to talk about the Bible's version- the true version- then that's okay. It really doesn't matter what you have an incentive to talk about, it is the topic of this thread. You do understand that there is no such thing as "The Bible", no universally accepted canon.
Pauline writes: jar writes: Consider the Nicene Creed. It lists beliefs. Christians, and I am a Christian, believe that there is an afterlife, but is simply a belief. Why not consider the Bible? Is it too authoritative of a source? I see. LOL. A Bible cannot be authoritative since there is no such thing as an authoritative Bible. Which one of the many canons do you believe to be the authoritative one, the Samaritan Canon that includes only the first five books, the Ethiopian Orthodox long Canon with over eighty books or some other Canon? Why? Have you ever read the Nicene Creed? Do you know what it is? In case you haven't, here it is.
quote:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
In case you are ignorant of the fact, the Nicene Creed is the most widely accepted Creed in the Christian Faith and not a matter of "my Christianity". Note that each section begins with "We believe".
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 4:39 PM | | Pauline has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 20 of 142 (569934)
07-24-2010 6:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by Pauline
07-24-2010 6:15 PM
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Pauline writes: jar writes: In case you are ignorant of the fact, the Nicene Creed is the most widely accepted Creed in the Christian Faith and not a matter of "my Christianity". Note that each section begins with "We believe". Oh yeah? So 'we believe' = we imagine? We conjecture? We guess? We have no clue? Is this what you believe? This is also why I call it your version of Christianity. Look at what you said:
jar writes: Now granted no one alive has a clue whether or not there is an afterlife or if anyone is saved, but, if there is an afterlife as imagined by the Christian religion, then the question of who is saved and who is not saved is determined by God as the ultimate authority for that issue. I'm sorry, but Christianity does not imagine or conjecture. Neither does it guess. Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus. And Jesus never said "there *might* be a heaven and hell.", "there might be angels", "there might be a resurrection", "there might be judgment", "I might be God", "I'm guessing you have to believe in me to enter heaven". And out of all the things in this world, you pick the Nicene creed to make your point? Unbelievable. By the way, I'm assuming you actually read the Nicene creed since you quote it from somewhere. Have you noticed the first 4 lines? They read: "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen." You believe in this creed, but you also believe in evolution. How is that? LOL Too funny.
Pauline writes: So 'we believe' = we imagine? We conjecture? We guess? We have no clue? Is this what you believe? This is also why I call it your version of Christianity. Yes. We believe, we imagine, we conjecture, we guess and we have no clue whether there is an afterlife or not. Do I believe that GOD created all that is, seen and unseen? Yup, I believe that. But it is simply a personal belief.
Pauline writes: You believe in this creed, but you also believe in evolution. How is that? It really is very simple. I believe that the Theory of Evolution explains "How GOD did it."
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 6:15 PM | | Pauline has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 24 of 142 (569962)
07-24-2010 8:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by Pauline
07-24-2010 7:43 PM
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Pauline writes: jar writes: I believe that the Theory of Evolution explains "How GOD did it." I can only imagine the distortion of thoughts going through your mind. Its funny how you trust God with *your* afterlife when you apparently don't trust Him with matters like creation. He must have been lying when He said "And God said let there be...." in Genesis, huh. Well, there is evidence for evolution. Remember, God doesn't say anything in the Bible, rather the authors of the different stories created characters they called God and wrote dialog for the character. But as you so nicely point out, my reasoning is not circular. I believe GOD will be the ultimate authority when it comes to my salvation if there is an afterlife, and accept the evidence when it comes to Evolution.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 7:43 PM | | Pauline has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 27 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 8:39 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 32 of 142 (569972)
07-24-2010 8:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 27 by Pauline
07-24-2010 8:39 PM
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Pauline writes: jar writes: Well, there is evidence for evolution. Evolution itself is a highly inadequate theory. It doesn't explain the metaphysical element of humanity. It doesn't explain man's rationality. It does account for his conscience. It assumes a miracle occurred. It relies on that miracle. I don't care about a theory that is insufficient. The Theory of Evolution does not try to explain metaphysics. Nor does it ever assume a miracle occurred. No science relies on miracles. You need to stop misrepresenting things.
Pauline writes: jar writes: Remember, God doesn't say anything in the Bible, rather the authors of the different stories created characters they called God and wrote dialog for the character. Now I see exactly where you're coming from. No wonder. So God is a fictional character. And you believe there is an afterlife based on a fictional story. In that case, what compels you to believe something that some guy named Matthew or Paul or Moses wrote thousands of years ago and live by it? Why do you even care? Yet more misrepresentation. I never said that GOD was a fictional character. I said that the gods in the stories are characters created by the authors of the stories. Of course, I don't think Moses ever wrote anything, may not even have existed. I care because I believe that a charge has been laid upon us, beginning with the great gift of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the charge to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, shelter the homeless, help the weak, teach the children; you know, "Do unto others as I would have them do unto me."
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 8:39 PM | | Pauline has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 9:15 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 36 of 142 (569976)
07-24-2010 9:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 33 by Pauline
07-24-2010 9:00 PM
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Pauline writes: Oh, you are educating me. I didn't know you guys like to pretend like you didn't know that the ToE relies on abiogenesis--clearly a miracle. Really? Admittedly the term Abiogenesis could include a miracle, a god blowing magic breath on mud, but all Abiogenesis means is life from non-life. So far though there is evidence for possible chemical origins of life, several different possible Theories of Abiogenesis, but no evidence yet for some magic breath.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 9:00 PM | | Pauline has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 39 of 142 (569979)
07-24-2010 9:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by Pauline
07-24-2010 9:15 PM
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Pauline writes: jar writes: I never said that GOD was a fictional character. I said that the gods in the stories are characters created by the authors of the stories. What exactly do you believe? Wow. I doubt that there is anyone here at EvC who has written more about what he believes then me. If you pick a topic there's a good chance there is a thread already here where my position has been posted, discussed and challenged.
Pauline writes: jar writes: I care because I believe that a charge has been laid upon us, beginning with the great gift of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the charge to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, shelter the homeless, help the weak, teach the children; you know, "Do unto others as I would have them do unto me." you do realize that your atheist chums also care about all these things, right? Without caring about God, that is. Yup. That's why I believe there will likely be far more Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostic, Satanists, Taoists, Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, Confucians and Wicaans in heaven than Christians.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by Pauline, posted 07-24-2010 9:15 PM | | Pauline has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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bluescat48 writes: I have never met an atheist who claims science disproves the existence of god. That would be just as stupid as a theist saying the bible proves god exists. Amen brother. Preach the Gospel.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by bluescat48, posted 07-28-2010 9:29 AM | | bluescat48 has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 70 of 142 (570811)
07-28-2010 10:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by Pauline
07-28-2010 10:11 PM
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Pauline writes: How can you read the Bible and also not agree that according to it, God is the ultimate authority? How is that any different than what is in the Vedas? How is that different than what is in the Vlusp? How is that any different then what is in the "Book of the Dead"? How is that any different than what is in Mahabharata? How is that any different then what is in the Holy Qur'an?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:11 PM | | Pauline has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 74 of 142 (570818)
07-28-2010 11:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 71 by Pauline
07-28-2010 10:51 PM
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Pauline writes: That would be fine, if the Bible was an equally fictitious books as the others mentioned. It isn't. And the evidence that the Bible is not fiction is...? You do understand that there is no such thing as "The Bible" don't you?
Pauline writes: Yep. When God is the author of this universe He has every right to do everything He wants. No one except of their own folly dare question Him. And your evidence to support that is...?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by Pauline, posted 07-28-2010 10:51 PM | | Pauline has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 93 of 142 (571183)
07-30-2010 4:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 90 by Pauline
07-30-2010 3:47 PM
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Pauline writes: Both parties agree that proof is necessary for any claim. Yet, when I ask crashfrog to prove his character, he refuses it. Asking God to prove His authority is a matter of one's faith and worldview. Regardless, the point still remains - ultimate authorities become ultimate authorities on the basis of self-authentication of their visibly, and unequivocally proved character. I'm sorry but speaking as a Christian, that is just silly. Read what you wrote. You said "Asking God to prove His authority is a matter of one's faith and worldview. ", so it is not God that is self authenticating but rather YOU who is authenticating God based on YOUR faith and YOUR worldview. If you had faith in crashfrog, then you would see that he is the ultimate authority. It is only your lack of faith and your limited worldview that prevents you from acknowledging crashfrog as the ultimate authority.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 3:47 PM | | Pauline has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 94 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 5:32 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 96 of 142 (571192)
07-30-2010 5:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 94 by Pauline
07-30-2010 5:32 PM
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Did you say "Asking God to prove His authority is a matter of one's faith and worldview. "?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 5:32 PM | | Pauline has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 103 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 6:43 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 102 of 142 (571202)
07-30-2010 6:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 101 by Pauline
07-30-2010 6:26 PM
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Re: Pauline vs. Pauline, Ctd.
Did you say "Asking God to prove His authority is a matter of one's faith and worldview. "?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by Pauline, posted 07-30-2010 6:26 PM | | Pauline has not replied |
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