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Author Topic:   Bolder-dash's very own little thread
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 44 of 109 (570597)
07-27-2010 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by CosmicChimp
07-27-2010 10:20 PM


What I have said is, show me the evidence for this-if you are going to claim your theory is so robust.
Show me some of the types of mutations that would be similar enough to the types of mutations it would require to build the complexity of an eye. Where are they? Why are they so hard to find? Are they a once in a trillion mutation? What does the random mutation for something like a functioning tear-duct look like?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by CosmicChimp, posted 07-27-2010 10:20 PM CosmicChimp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 10:50 PM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 48 by CosmicChimp, posted 07-27-2010 11:13 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 46 of 109 (570601)
07-27-2010 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by crashfrog
07-27-2010 10:50 PM


Is it happening to every sebaceous gland on the creature? Or just one RIGHT at the corner of the eye? What is the change exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 10:50 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 11:06 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 49 of 109 (570608)
07-27-2010 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by crashfrog
07-27-2010 11:06 PM


So start showing some examples. This is what I have been asking for all along.
Where are these random mutational changes that might make one particular sebaceous gland begin to secrete fluid onto your knee every time you get an itch there? Or how about a genetic mutation to a sebaceous gland that will allow you to squirt a deadly poison anytime a robber points a gun at you, sort of like spiderman; or at least like a spitting cobra?
For a theory that relies ENTIRELY on these type of processes to create every system on earth, you sure are lacking in real examples. Trillions upon trillions of these freak mutations needing to occur, and you have trouble finding any of them. Bizarre.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by crashfrog, posted 07-27-2010 11:06 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Vacate, posted 07-28-2010 12:18 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 12:33 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 61 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 2:57 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 51 of 109 (570612)
07-28-2010 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Vacate
07-28-2010 12:18 AM


Re: Is there a topic anywhere?
Ha, that's what I have said? Do you want a response?
Ok. No its not!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Vacate, posted 07-28-2010 12:18 AM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Vacate, posted 07-28-2010 12:37 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 54 of 109 (570616)
07-28-2010 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by ringo
07-28-2010 12:33 AM


Right, it won't happen with one mutation. But what will that mutation be that gets something started? Remember, each of the steps have to be significant enough to allow some type of reproductive advantage.
So what kind of mutation gives a creature that was already exiting just fine, and finding food, and managing to reproduce for perhaps centuries, a new type of mutation that will begin a series of mutations that develop a brand new function. Say bats with echolocation. Go back in time, anywhere along the progression of this feature, and show how it is useful, all along its path to full functionality. Show some of the steps. Show some similar steps in modern creatures. Heck show anything.
Every, every, completed system, like a eye, or like spinning a web, or like sweat glands, or like lungs, they need many many unique mutations to work. So many that its almost impossible to imagine how many. And here, in real life, in real time, we can't see any of these unique mutations happening.
Suppose we are going to continue to evolve. We may eventually have six arms, and two heads, and can see gamma rays, and can hear the sounds of atoms colliding. When and where are these new features going to begin? How will they begin? Have these random mutations, that allow for these new unique features which produce reproductive advantages stopped? Don't you think someone with two heads, that can do calculus at the same time he is arc welding a building would have an advantage because they could earn two salaries at once, and impress the chicks, would have a great reproductive advantage? How would it start? Why haven't we seen such potentials?
The most fundamental point in all of this, is that as much as everyone of you evolutionists tries to claim the evidence abounds for your theory, you have this huge gaping gulf of trying to show how any of this happened, and simply saying that well, "who knows, we can't see it, but maybe..." is not very convincing.
You are making extraordinary claims about the world, you need to provide more than just a just so story in order to have this arrogant attitude that your theory is bullet-proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 12:33 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 12:58 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 1:04 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 56 of 109 (570620)
07-28-2010 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by subbie
07-28-2010 12:58 AM


Its ok with me if you also want to name a few examples of what you prefer to call a "neutral" mutation that you see in modern creatures that you feel is suitable as a building block for a completely new system.
I don't care if you call it neutral, beneficial or deleterious, will it build something brand new? Examples. I know your side doesn't have much to work with, in terms of true empirical evidence-I am simply highlighting that fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 12:58 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Vacate, posted 07-28-2010 1:08 AM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 59 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 1:19 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 62 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 3:00 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


(1)
Message 60 of 109 (570627)
07-28-2010 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by subbie
07-28-2010 1:19 AM


Yes, this is a very nice series of drawings you have shown me In fact I am very familiar with these drawings.
Unfortunately these drawings show absolutely no evidence for the mechanisms by which these changes occur, they also don't show why these mutations would have been beneficial in a population compared to the existing form (especially considering that if you are going to argue that it gave some small reproductive advantage by having some small almost imperceptible hearing advantage each step along the way, you also have to keep in mind, that in populations of species, there could be 100, maybe 1000 different things that decide an individuals reproductive success, with each advantage competing with another for fitness, COMPLICATED by the fact that the reproductive advantage in one short time frame could easily change in one or two generations, as environmental factors change) .
So if you want to claim that everyone of these changes were just random events, that also just so happen to help the animals get laid more, we are not even close.
Instead, if you wanted these drawing to match your theory, you would need to show a series of these animals with all kinds of imperfect jaw bones developing and dying, with some getting thicker in the parts where the opening should be, so it makes it harder to open it's mouth, and with some getting mutations that cause the jaw bones to come completely unhinged so that the jaws just flop around and make it harder to chew, and with some getting an eardrum on the top of its nose, and with some getting a cornea in the middle of the anvil. Now THAT would be random. What you are showing me looks completely guided and completely efficient-just like how we see life today. Where are the drawings of the ones who developed worse hearing? Where are all the dead end body parts within the same species?
I don't hear about people getting new bone growths on the side of their face, that provide any reproductive advantages-or even that are neutral for a few thousand generations. Do you?
One thing I concede we can possibly conclude from these drawings, if they even represent reality at all, some animals have better hearing than others.
If someone said to you, what would guided change look like to you-isn't this what you think it would look like?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 1:19 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by caffeine, posted 07-28-2010 4:07 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 72 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 10:00 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 63 of 109 (570637)
07-28-2010 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by crashfrog
07-28-2010 2:57 AM


Here is my take on you crashfrog:
You are a young college student that already feels they know everything in life that there is to know, you have taken a couple of biology classes (congratulations) and you are now going to tell everyone who will listen all about your great life experience wisdom, with all of the confidence of Walter Middy.
You are so sure that you already have every answer, like your naive claim that you know all about every psychic and near death study that has ever existed, and you have already declared them false, so you no longer need to think about anything. You don't need to spend time learning things, or contemplating things, or listening and trying to gather a deepening understanding-no you already have it all figured out at 20 years of age.
I have very little interest in engaging such a person, other than to assure you that you don't have it all figured out just yet. The complexities of the world, the meaning of life, the meaning of intelligence, the origins of our being, the foundations of once's personal faith are complicated things that you are not equipped to make such final judgments on just yet. You are a product of your limited world experience, and your little understanding of the books you believe you have read and understood. Your understanding of science doesn't impress me at all.
Maybe you can get back to me in 30 years when you know what the heck you are talking about- in the meantime you can remember that somebody once told you that you didn't have it all figured out yet-and spend some time actually thinking about it. You can start by taking a philosophy class while you think you are learning about science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 2:57 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 3:44 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 66 of 109 (570642)
07-28-2010 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by caffeine
07-28-2010 4:07 AM


Well, I don't quite agree, because as others have pointed out, most mutations would be neutral. So there should be every kind of possible mutation viewable in the fossil record, and yet there just isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by caffeine, posted 07-28-2010 4:07 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 4:25 AM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 70 by caffeine, posted 07-28-2010 6:45 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 68 of 109 (570644)
07-28-2010 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by crashfrog
07-28-2010 3:44 AM


How many psychic studies are there? You know how many there are? You have studied them all?
Let me have a discussion with you about every psychic study you know about, and everyone that exists on the planet, and let me have you analyze in detail your little take on the flaws of each one (including all the ones you know nothing about), and how you know much more about the phenomenon than the people who have spent their lives actually doing the studies, like Dr. Sam Parnia, or Rupert Sheldrake, or Michael Marsh,or ... because you already KNOW everyone is wrong, so if I am just willing to wait for you to decide where each is wrong, that would be fine and dandy. ...or ...or..let me NOT have that discussion with you.
Because making a decision about things requires first having an open and clear enough mind to actually contemplate what it is your are deciding on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 3:44 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 4:39 AM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 71 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 9:44 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 73 of 109 (570696)
07-28-2010 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by subbie
07-28-2010 10:00 AM


Please keep in mind, I will only give a lengthy response to someone who I feel will understand it. This is not an acknowledgment of defeat. Thus I am giving up giving crashfrog lengthy answers until he demonstrates a deeper level of insight.
I am reserving judgment for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 10:00 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by subbie, posted 07-28-2010 1:24 PM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 78 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 1:48 PM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 2:27 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 74 of 109 (570697)
07-28-2010 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by caffeine
07-28-2010 6:45 AM


Actually what I am asking for are examples of a continuation of the same processes today that are claimed to have caused the diversity in history that we see today.
I have not seen anyone provide those yet. For example, Melindoor discussed the Italian Wall lizards. How can anyone claim this was a result of random mutations, that take years and years of trial and error to occur. Even some tried to claim that evolution can happen very rapidly even in complex organisms, and that this is also in keeping with your theory. Clearly they don't understand their own theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by caffeine, posted 07-28-2010 6:45 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by caffeine, posted 07-28-2010 11:48 AM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 76 by DBlevins, posted 07-28-2010 11:52 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 80 of 109 (570762)
07-28-2010 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
07-28-2010 2:27 PM


Do you mean like when I asked what a mutation for a tear duct looks like, and he said a mutation to a sebaceous gland, and I asked what change and to which sebaceous gland-just one in the corner of the eye, and he said um, um..nothing?
Is that when he schooled me?
I am so embarrassed to be schooled with such insight blustery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 2:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 07-28-2010 6:43 PM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 82 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-28-2010 6:45 PM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-28-2010 6:52 PM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 84 by molbiogirl, posted 07-28-2010 7:01 PM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 07-28-2010 7:12 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 86 of 109 (570829)
07-29-2010 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by molbiogirl
07-28-2010 7:01 PM


Re: Early tetrapods and tear ducts
No, molbiogirl, that can't be-because the zoology professional crashfrog has already assured us that it was a mutation to a sebaceous gland (but just to one sebaceous gland oddly enough).
I mean, are you going to try and tell Shakespeare he is wrong, with just the tools of the alphabet? Come on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by molbiogirl, posted 07-28-2010 7:01 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by articulett, posted 07-29-2010 4:06 AM Bolder-dash has replied
 Message 89 by molbiogirl, posted 07-29-2010 10:33 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3629 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 88 of 109 (570848)
07-29-2010 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by articulett
07-29-2010 4:06 AM


Re: Early tetrapods and tear ducts
Haha, thank you for making the point of how silly it was for crashfrog to say that it was a mutation to a sebaceous gland that caused the formation of a tear duct. Its unfortunate that this irony has escaped you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by articulett, posted 07-29-2010 4:06 AM articulett has not replied

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