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Author | Topic: Parables 101 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
I realise that. I might ask you then where you get the length of service from? It isn't in the parable of talents.
The fair employer parable is the only one mentioning pay and time and I haven't mentioned this one at all.
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
If it is about not squandering the gifts god has given you, does it apply to everyone? So was the lesson just for Jews and not a master or mankind in general?
The parable doesn't give us that answer. Jesus was talking to Jews. It is relevant whether it is a parable or not since this thread is about parables. It is irrelevant to the argument whether it's called a parable or a xmas carol. They are the words of Jesus.
Everything comes from God. If one does nothing good with what they are given, it will be taken away and they will suffer. That is what Jesus is saying with the sheep and the goats. The goats didn't use their resources (whether large or small) to help others in need.
The master in the parable of talents did nothing to help the servant with one talent. He actually put the servant in a position of need. I would imagine the master had a large amount of resources. Why point the finger at the lowly servant and not at the harsh master?
Not what either of the parables I've addressed are telling you.
I don't get the distinction between who he is teaching. Isn't he the son of god? Isn't god the father of us all?Parable of the Talents: Use the resources (big or small) God gave you to serve God. Usually serving God means helping others in need. Parable of the Fair Employer: No matter how long we have served God we will be equal before God. So if you are a goat and haven't used your resources (big or small) wisely by helping others in need, then you haven't been serving God so length of service is irrelevant. If you are a sheep and have been using your resources (big or small) wisely, then the length of time you have been serving doesn't gain you any more points with God. The sheep are equal before God. The discourse on the sheep and goats refers to Gentiles. When the word nation is used by itself it usually isn't including the nation of Israel. As for the parables, Jesus is teaching Jews not Gentiles.
I am beginning to understand that there is prior knowledge and strongly held beliefs that assume and add a lot more than I can perceive. For me it has nothing to do with my beliefs. For me it is about the written language and comprehending what is written as it is written. The only background I have is that Jesus was a defender of the under-dog every time.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:This is why subtitles are good, especially in a thread like this where several parables are being discussed. Message 128 is where you started discussing the Parable of the Fair Employer. I came into that discussion at Message 160.
PurpleDawn writes: It didn't speak of repentance but it did speak of service.The kingdom of heaven is like.... A positive phrasing would be that no matter how long one serves "God" they are equal before God. No extra points for serving longer. Just like the fair employer, no matter how long one worked for him that day they were paid the same. So in the kingdom of heaven, no matter how long one serves God, they are equal before God. No extra points for longer service. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Jesus was talking to a Jewish audience. The lesson was for his audience. That doesn't mean others can't learn from the parable. Do the most with what you have and help others when you can.
quote:This isn't a general discussion about the words of Jesus. This thread is about parables. So it does make a difference. quote:Not the point of the parable. quote:The parable were for first century Jews. So Jesus told a story they would understand. It wasn't written for us to understand. quote:Then you will likely get your own moral or lesson from the story, which may or may not be what Jesus was teaching his audience. So either you want to learn about the culture to understand what was being taught or you don't care and will just make up your own lesson. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Ah, yes. I can see the probelm now. I was just commenting on Phat's thread but introduced one of my own which was the parable of the talents. I will surely sub-title from now on. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
This isn't a general discussion about the words of Jesus. This thread is about parables. So it does make a difference. Aren't they the same thing?
The master in the parable of talents did nothing to help the servant with one talent. He actually put the servant in a position of need. I would imagine the master had a large amount of resources. Why point the finger at the lowly servant and not at the harsh master? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not the point of the parable. How do you know? Aren't you just using parts of the parables and discarding what doesn't fit into your expanation?
The parable were for first century Jews. So Jesus told a story they would understand. It wasn't written for us to understand. My mistake, I thought the bible stories were still being taught and many follow the perceived teachings today.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For me it has nothing to do with my beliefs. For me it is about the written language and comprehending what is written as it is written. The only background I have is that Jesus was a defender of the under-dog every time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then you will likely get your own moral or lesson from the story, which may or may not be what Jesus was teaching his audience. So either you want to learn about the culture to understand what was being taught or you don't care and will just make up your own lesson. The behaviour Jesus desribes in the same in any culture.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
pelican writes: jar writes: I believe the Goats in that parable would be found among what we call Christians today, particularly Biblical Christians and all the Televangelists and their followers. There may be a few Christians in with the Sheep but mostly they will likely be Atheists, Agnostics, Taoists, Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Animists, Hindus, Sikhs and folk from other religions.
I must have missed that but it just about covers everyone. I thought he was referring to goats as those who do not treat others well and the sheep as those who do, regardless of religion or no religion. Go back and look at the Sheep and Goats parable in Matthew 25, it's one of the most important lessons in the Bible. Let's parse it together.
quote: So everyone is gathered, all nations, all beliefs.
quote: Now the Sheep are surprised that he says they did anything for him. They know they never did anything for Jesus. Note the emphasis. This is not the reply you would expect from a follower. Now look at the Goats.
quote: Note the subtle difference in the replies. The Goats say, "Hey bro, when did we ever fail to help you?" That is the reply of someone who was a follower, one you can say, "When did we not help you?" The point is that many of the folk out there that spend their lives professing love of God and Jesus, doing for Jesus, the Christian followers the ones that would do anything FOR Jesus, miss the point. It is an explanation of the Great Commandment Love God and love others as you love yourself. The way you love God is not doing for God, it is doing for others. When we get sorted, all the secular folk that paid high taxes for a welfare system to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, educate the children will surely be among the Sheep. If we look at the worlds population, there are far more folk out there of all religions that will fall under the criteria of Sheep than there will be Christians. Sure there will be Christians in both camps, but the common idea that the split is between believers and non-believers is wrong. When we look at the makeup of Sheep and Goats, the division will not be as so many Christians seem to think. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and fix sub-title Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No. Everything that Jesus supposedly said was not a parable. quote:I read and try to understand what the original audience understood. No. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
he point is that many of the folk out there that spend their lives professing love of God and Jesus, doing for Jesus, the Christian followers the ones that would do anything FOR Jesus, miss the point. I would agree with this also which means you don't even have to believe in god to receive god's love. It's all about the person we are on the inside regardless of culture or religion. It's more like being the word of god rather than doing.
It is an explanation of the Great Commandment Love God and love others as you love yourself. The way you love God is not doing for God, it is doing for others. When we get sorted, all the secular folk that paid high taxes for a welfare system to feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, educate the children will surely be among the Sheep. Are you in this category? Personally giving money in any way doesn't cut it. Perhaps the intention and motive for giving money is more important. Would the high tax payers pay it if they didn't have to? How many fiddle their taxes? As with any group of human beings, there will be a mix.
If we look at the worlds population, there are far more folk out there of all religions that will fall under the criteria of Sheep than there will be Christians. Sure there will be Christians in both camps, but the common idea that the split is between believers and non-believers is wrong. Yes I would totally agree with this 'idea' of the split being wrong.
When we look at the makeup of Sheep and Goats, the division will not be as so many Christians seem to think.
I know the J.W's believe 144000 of them will go to heaven. When the need is great enough people will believe anything. Thanks for your responses. Enjoyed them very much.
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
No. Everything that Jesus supposedly said was not a parable.
Yes I agree that Jesus was not always speaking in parables. However, his sentiments and beliefs don't change throughout his life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How do you know? Aren't you just using parts of the parables and discarding what doesn't fit into your expanation? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I read and try to understand what the original audience understood. I think the understanding has to come through the author/narrator. I try to understand what Jesus meant. I don't think their minds could have been as complicated as ours and wouldn't have the ability to 'overthink' it as we do. Thanks for your input. I expected a lively discussion and was not dissappointed. Great.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:It doesn't matter. The thread is to discuss parables not his general sentiments and beliefs. The sheep and goat discourse is not a parable no matter how you rationalize it. quote:To understand what Jesus meant, one has to understand the culture from which he spoke or from which the author wrote (80-100CE). The master/slave relationship is not part of our culture. The real focus of Jesus' teachings is the refining of personal piety and active involvement in helping people. Jewish teachings dealt with practical living. Unlike Jesus' audience, we aren't familiar with rabbinic parables. There were other rabbinic parables with the theme of reward for faithful stewardship. His audience would have understood his point. They didn't need to make it more complicated than it is. Jews were quite capable of "over thinking" as much as we are today. Just look at the "fence around the Torah" and their methods of biblical interpretation. We, on the other hand, are far removed from the culture and Jewish teachings. That's why we try to make it more complicated than it is. We are missing information, so we are reading more into the story because of our current culture and belief system. (That's why I keep telling you the behavior of the master is not the point of the story and it isn't about an underdog. You are making the story more complicated than it is.) The parable of the talents relates to the popular English expression "When the cat is away, the mice will play!" IOW, for Christians just because Jesus isn't physically standing in front of us, doesn't mean we can be lax in our behavior/stewardship. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Ok the consensus of opinion seems to be that Jesus was teaching "it is wrong to not use our god given talents."
Is this how Christians see it and do they apply it in their lives?
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
pelican writes: Ok the consensus of opinion seems to be that Jesus was teaching "it is wrong to not use our god given talents." Is this how Christians see it and do they apply it in their lives? It's sure not as popular as "Let go and let god" or "Not perfected, only saved" or all the other cop outs. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
It's sure not as popular as "Let go and let god" or "Not perfected, only saved" or all the other cop outs. Copping out of what?
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Personal responsibility.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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