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Author | Topic: Parables 101 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
I meant the masters' actions will be judged on an equal basis.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
The 'judgement' following the parable of the talents clearly explains god's expectations of our behaviour towards one another and the consequences of our behaviour on earth. This doesn't mean some of us and the master clearly did not live up to those expectations.
In this case the master would be represented as a goat.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
People who repent towards the end of an ill-spent life (the "eleventh hour", as the text says) get the same heavenly reward as those who were obedient to God all along. ... and doesn't Jesus warn that we cannot know when the 'eleventh hour' will come?
I take the 11th hour to mean time approaching death and we cannot know when this is. I think most people imagine repenting and asking for forgiveness on our death beds but death is usually unexpected. I believe Jesus is saying repent now because you never know.
Is that relevant?
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Whether the master's actions were right or wrong is irrelevant to the lesson of the story. In the parable, the master judges, punishes and rewards. In the following paragraph "Judgement", it is god who punishes and rewards but for completely different reasons.Is the master morally responsible and is this what god judges us on? The Judgment 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 25:32 All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 25:33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 25:34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 25:36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 25:38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? 25:39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 25:40 And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’ 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 25:44 Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’ 25:45 Then he will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Edited by pelican, : No reason given.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
This is the judgement following the parable.
The Judgment 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 25:32 All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 25:33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 25:34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 25:36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 25:38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? 25:39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 25:40 And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’ 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 25:44 Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’ 25:45 Then he will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.’ 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
There is a great disparity between how the master judges and how jesus and god judge. We all, including the masters, will be eventually judged by god's criteria not our own. If you substitute the master and servant with the sheep and the goat, which is which?
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
It didn't speak of repentance but it did speak of service. The kingdom of heaven is like.... A positive phrasing would be that no matter how long one serves "God" they are equal before God. No extra points for serving longer. Yes I can see that but isn't it the quality of service that is judged? In the parable of talents who is best serving god?
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
You're mixing parables. It's not a Chinese restaurant where you get to pick one from column one and two from column two. It's all in context. The parables lead up to the judgement in god's kingdom.
Each parable stands on it's own. There is nothing in any of the four parables that tells us anything about how the master in the Talents parable would be judged or even if he would be judged. In fact in the parable of the Talents the master is the judge.
Yes and a bad one at that.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
You can't do that. Well who do you think jesus was referring to as sheep or goats?
The common theme in all four of the parables though is that we will be judged based on how we perform, what we do. OK the parable of the sheep and goats is subtitled Judgement and it explains the criterior on which all those represented previously in Jesus' parables will be judged in the kingdom of heaven when you die.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
I believe the Goats in that parable would be found among what we call Christians today, particularly Biblical Christians and all the Televangelists and their followers. There may be a few Christians in with the Sheep but mostly they will likely be Atheists, Agnostics, Taoists, Satanists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, Animists, Hindus, Sikhs and folk from other religions.
I must have missed that but it just about covers everyone. I thought he was referring to goats as those who do not treat others well and the sheep as those who do, regardless of religion or no religion.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Not in this parable. The parable deals with length of service, not quality.
I think we are still on the talents parable and in this it doesn't have reward for length of service, but the quality of service by the return on the talents. Doubling the masters money was quality service for the master but returning the investment without profit was not quality service for the master.Where do you pull quality of service from? However, neither Jesus or god judges us using this criterior. A parable is supposed to contain a religious or moral lesson and being told to do better is neither. As I have previously said, the criterior by which jesus and or god expects from us is in the judgement following the parable of the talents. These don't stand alone as individual stories. They are all linked and Jesus told of the consequences of our behaviour towards one another. Sheep or goat?
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
A parable makes one moral or religious point. The point of the Parable of the Talents deals with not squandering the gifts God has given you. What the master in the story will be held accountable for by God is not part of the parable. It isn't the point. If it is about not squandering the gifts god has given you, does it apply to everyone?
The discourse by Jesus starting with verse 31 is not a parable. Jesus is telling them what will happen. Clearly the sheep used their gifts wisely and helped others and the goats didn't.
Someone said it was but I don't think it's relevant. I don't think the judgement mentions anything about using gifts wisely and neither does the parable of the talents. One shows us how we behave and the other shows us the consequences of our behaviour.It's up to us to decide before we die to judge our own behaviour or else. Hell and damnation!
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
I realise that. I might ask you then where you get the length of service from? It isn't in the parable of talents.
The fair employer parable is the only one mentioning pay and time and I haven't mentioned this one at all.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
If it is about not squandering the gifts god has given you, does it apply to everyone? So was the lesson just for Jews and not a master or mankind in general?
The parable doesn't give us that answer. Jesus was talking to Jews. It is relevant whether it is a parable or not since this thread is about parables. It is irrelevant to the argument whether it's called a parable or a xmas carol. They are the words of Jesus.
Everything comes from God. If one does nothing good with what they are given, it will be taken away and they will suffer. That is what Jesus is saying with the sheep and the goats. The goats didn't use their resources (whether large or small) to help others in need.
The master in the parable of talents did nothing to help the servant with one talent. He actually put the servant in a position of need. I would imagine the master had a large amount of resources. Why point the finger at the lowly servant and not at the harsh master?
Not what either of the parables I've addressed are telling you.
I don't get the distinction between who he is teaching. Isn't he the son of god? Isn't god the father of us all?Parable of the Talents: Use the resources (big or small) God gave you to serve God. Usually serving God means helping others in need. Parable of the Fair Employer: No matter how long we have served God we will be equal before God. So if you are a goat and haven't used your resources (big or small) wisely by helping others in need, then you haven't been serving God so length of service is irrelevant. If you are a sheep and have been using your resources (big or small) wisely, then the length of time you have been serving doesn't gain you any more points with God. The sheep are equal before God. The discourse on the sheep and goats refers to Gentiles. When the word nation is used by itself it usually isn't including the nation of Israel. As for the parables, Jesus is teaching Jews not Gentiles.
I am beginning to understand that there is prior knowledge and strongly held beliefs that assume and add a lot more than I can perceive. For me it has nothing to do with my beliefs. For me it is about the written language and comprehending what is written as it is written. The only background I have is that Jesus was a defender of the under-dog every time.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Ah, yes. I can see the probelm now. I was just commenting on Phat's thread but introduced one of my own which was the parable of the talents. I will surely sub-title from now on. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
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pelican Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
This isn't a general discussion about the words of Jesus. This thread is about parables. So it does make a difference. Aren't they the same thing?
The master in the parable of talents did nothing to help the servant with one talent. He actually put the servant in a position of need. I would imagine the master had a large amount of resources. Why point the finger at the lowly servant and not at the harsh master? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not the point of the parable. How do you know? Aren't you just using parts of the parables and discarding what doesn't fit into your expanation?
The parable were for first century Jews. So Jesus told a story they would understand. It wasn't written for us to understand. My mistake, I thought the bible stories were still being taught and many follow the perceived teachings today.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For me it has nothing to do with my beliefs. For me it is about the written language and comprehending what is written as it is written. The only background I have is that Jesus was a defender of the under-dog every time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then you will likely get your own moral or lesson from the story, which may or may not be what Jesus was teaching his audience. So either you want to learn about the culture to understand what was being taught or you don't care and will just make up your own lesson. The behaviour Jesus desribes in the same in any culture.
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