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Author Topic:   Creationists think Evolutionists think like Creationists.
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 273 of 485 (571033)
07-29-2010 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Bolder-dash
07-29-2010 7:53 AM


Re: How evolutionists think...
(as if you really know about every study ever done on psychic behavior-which clearly you don't
How many do you think there are?
What was the last one you read? Be specific. I'm looking authors, title, and date and journal of publication.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-29-2010 7:53 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 319 of 485 (571280)
07-31-2010 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Bolder-dash
07-31-2010 6:56 AM


Re: How evolutionists think...
What is repeatable about studying a fossil?
Anyone allowed access to the fossil can repeat the same tests on it and repeat the same observations, thereby independently verifying the conclusions drawn from those tests.
Have you ever watched Ghost Lab? They do study paranormal activity with cameras, with sound equipment, with electrical activity instruments.
Yes. Have you noticed that they never discover any actual ghosts?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 364 of 485 (571498)
07-31-2010 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by marc9000
07-31-2010 9:37 PM


Re: The search for meaning
. A person doesn’t become a Christian, or realize he/she is a Christian, as a simple quick decision of hey, why not, that looks easy, as they do with so many other subjects, including atheism IMO. What’s not quick and easy about atheism?
You can't possibly be serious, are you?
Do you even know any atheists? I've never met or heard of a single one who came from a background of faith who didn't describe the process of conversion to atheism as being primarily a frightening, alienating period of their lives.
Many atheists can't even come out to their loved ones; that's how profoundly society associates atheism with immorality and untrustworthiness. It certainly wasn't an easy process with my Christian family. Take a look at some deconversion stories if you genuinely labor under the misapprehension that there's anything easy about conversion to atheism:
Nonreligious Questions
For example, I’d expect when Darwin was finishing up his Beagle voyage, one of his first stops on land was to visit some atheist geologists.
What "atheist geologists" were those? Please be specific.
In exactly the same way, there is no indication in science that Darwinism is encouraged to be put to any tests. I borrowed a friend’s son’s high school biology textbook a few months ago, and saw no encouragement for it
No high school textbook, on any subject, is going to ask students to put anything to the test. Elementary and high school pedagogy, for better or for worse, is about telling students the way it is and expecting them to remember it. I'd prefer it if students in high school were challenged more, challenged to do some of the experiments and research that lead to the state of knowledge we have, but they don't. It's not a conspiracy to shelter evolution from challenge, it's simply the consistent, across-the-board state of education in America. You may have noticed that your friend's son wasn't challenged to independently corroborate the Holocaust, either.
That said by the time they enter college they are performing experiments that test and confirm the mechanisms of evolution. I did many as a freshman, and every year since. Maybe you will too, if you choose to pursue study in the biological sciences in college.
The dividing line is too fuzzy between actual science and metaphysics.
Is it? Can you give an example from the peer-reviewed literature? What was the last scientific study you read that you thought blended science and "metaphysics"? Please be specific - I'm looking for authors, title, and date and journal of publication.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by marc9000, posted 07-31-2010 9:37 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by marc9000, posted 08-02-2010 8:51 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 368 of 485 (571528)
08-01-2010 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by Bolder-dash
08-01-2010 1:39 AM


Re: Ebert's Out of Body Experience
So what I really want to ask you is, What kind of gall, what kind of audacity, what utter fucking shamelessness do you have to have to call ME the liar in this discussion? And you are going to say to me that you are polite? How shitty are you Granny, how completely shitty?
quote:
Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.
Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.
-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate
Those are from the forum guidelines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-01-2010 1:39 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 382 of 485 (571593)
08-01-2010 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Bolder-dash
08-01-2010 1:12 PM


Re: Getting back on topic...
Perhaps most evolutionists in school were simply taught that this is the way life is
I was a creationist for most of my formative years, until I actually examined the evidence for both propositions and was convinced of the scientific soundness of evolution.
Perhaps one can blame this on the evolutionists themselves for never really pursuing the subject more themselves and having an intellectual curiosity
You've made it abundantly clear that it is the creationists like you who lack any sort of curiosity. Intellectual curiosity is not equivalent to guileless credulity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-01-2010 1:12 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-01-2010 1:31 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 415 of 485 (571673)
08-01-2010 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Bolder-dash
08-01-2010 1:31 PM


Re: Getting back on topic...
I am still of the lack of a well-rounded education opinion.
Ok, well, we can discuss that. Maybe we can even compare.
I'm a biochemistry major now, but I have a total of about six years of formal undergraduate study in such diverse fields as English writing and literature, computer science, Russian history, Bible history, and journalism. I've traveled to about 5 different countries (which is no great shakes, just putting that out there), studied at 7 different institutions including La Sorbonne, and can program, if not awesomely, in Java, PHP, and Python. I'm an adequate though frequently ingenious carpenter, developed one or two research methods for Loxosceles reclusa, trained in several martial arts of the sword, and I'm teaching myself basic electronics soldering.
In other words I'm a jack of quite a few trades. Well-rounded to a fault, most would say, and note that the biggest weakness of my CV is that I've not yet acquired the depth in any field to match my breadth.
So, how about you? What areas have you studied, formally or informally? What's your training and experience in scientific fields? What was the last scientific paper you read? Be specific. I'm looking for authors, title, and date and journal of publication.
I also think that one reason why evolutionists are so close minded and not very contemplative
Literally nobody here thinks you're the contemplative one. You understand that, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-01-2010 1:31 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-01-2010 11:35 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 420 of 485 (571688)
08-02-2010 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by Bolder-dash
08-01-2010 11:35 PM


Re: Getting back on topic...
Please provide evidence for those claims of your background.
I don't care if you believe me or not, but I'm curious about your own background. I wonder if you'd share, as I have, and put to rest our disagreement about whether creationists or evolutionists are more "well-rounded."
For instance, what was the last scientific paper you read? Please be specific. I'm looking for authors, title, and date and journal of publication.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-01-2010 11:35 PM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-02-2010 12:15 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 422 of 485 (571698)
08-02-2010 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by Bolder-dash
08-02-2010 12:15 AM


Re: Getting back on topic...
I am simply saying that there are others here who feel that you HAVE to provide this information, or else you are in violation of the rules, and as such are in danger of being suspended for violating the rules.
No, there is nobody that feels that way.
Again - what was the last scientific article you read? Please be specific. I'm looking for authors, title, and date and journal of publication.
Also, are you interested in sharing your background, or not? If the answer is "no" please just say so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by Bolder-dash, posted 08-02-2010 12:15 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 435 of 485 (571890)
08-02-2010 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by marc9000
08-02-2010 8:51 PM


Re: The search for meaning
I didn’t really distinguish between someone who converted to atheism vs one who never was religious to begin with.
Atheists very much do. Many of them, like myself, come by atheism after a period of believing much of the same things you do.
Isn’t the above possible without paying much, if any attention to science?
Maybe, but why turn our backs on another source of it? Is your life literally so full of awe and wonder that there's no room at all for more? We should all be so lucky, I guess.
Or are you saying that the above described bliss in atheism
I don't see where you've quoted any of those individuals describing bliss in atheism.
That’s something that’s changing fast in our society, I’ve seen it with my own eyes in my 55 years of life.
That's true. It's getting better, and I think prominent atheist figures like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris - as well as individual atheists who do come out to their friends and family - have much to do with that.
But it's by no means easy. In many ways atheists are America's "last minority."
A couple of them show relief and contentment.
I never said it was a harrowing process for everyone. But even the people who feel relief, it's the relief that comes at the end of a worrying period of losing one's faith.
The earth was more generally thought of to be fairly young at that time
Not at all. By Darwin's time the Christian "young Earth" had long been rejected by the geological community as well as by mainstream Christians.
I know of no evidence that suggests that Darwin was keenly interested in geology or astronomy, so it makes sense that he would have been uncertain about evidence for an old earth.
I guess, but I still don't see any of your evidence that Darwin hopped off the Beagle and immediately put together a cabal of atheist geologists. I'm not sure there were any, or that Darwin would have needed any. The geological consensus against the 6000-year-old Earth was developed primarily by Christians.
Speculation about events of millions of years ago, ruling out anything but naturalism for all of reality
I wonder if you could point to even a single high school science textbook that so much as defines "epistemological naturalism", much less "rules anything out" but it. Science textbooks communicate the scientific consensus. What on Earth else should they do? Creation stories are the subject of a comparative religions class, not a science class.
Sorry, too old for that.
If you're so old, that only makes it more important for you to start getting caught up on the science if you'd like to have an informed opinion about the origin of life. I'm not saying "enroll in classes" but there's a significant weight of scientific expertise available at this board - students and professors who would like nothing better than to ease the burden of your incredible scientific ignorance.
Maybe instead of spinning insulting yarns about how they're all involved in a conspiracy to murder dissenting voices, you might ask them some questions? Questions are the beginning of knowledge.
Not peer reviewed you say? Why do you insist on peer review
Peer-review is how we distinguish between writing that is science - that is the "scientific literature" - and writing that is about science, meant to give laypeople an approximate explanation of it. When you say "the scientific literature", but what you meant was the science-subject popular press, you're engaged in a fundamental misrepresentation about the nature of science and the scientific consensus.
"Origin Of Species" wasn't peer reviewed.
You're right, which is why "On the Origin of Species" has only historical interest, not scientific authority. (The arguments that "On the Origin of Species" presented to laypeople, on the other hand, were peer-reviewed by the Linnean Society.)
Peer review seems to be for science what the courts are to Democrats — the judge/jury said this, so that trumps everything that a much larger group of people thinks.
Peer-review is how the scientific consensus on an issue emerges. You've correctly identified that it is important to scientists; surely it can't be taken as a bad thing that we just don't take a scientist's word for stuff? That we subject all scientific experiments and conclusions to review by those best equipped to assess them?
As Thomas Sowell put into words very concisely; People who are very aware that they have more knowledge than the average person are often very unaware that they do not have one-tenth of the knowledge of all the average persons put together.
Why not just come out and say that you fundamentally reject the very idea of expertise?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by marc9000, posted 08-02-2010 8:51 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by marc9000, posted 08-04-2010 8:18 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 475 of 485 (572949)
08-08-2010 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by marc9000
08-04-2010 8:18 PM


Re: The search for meaning
And the first steps in that process are when Christianity is compromised with Darwinism.
Only because you construe a Christianity that embraces science as weaker than one that denies it, but those Christians who embrace science say that your faith is the weaker one. And in my experience more atheists come from fundamentalism and creationism than from science-embracing theism; the incredible tension between the fundamentalist, Biblical literalist dogma and what can be plainly seen with ones own eyes is responsible for a lot of deconversions.
But, frankly, you're right that clear-eyed observation of the natural world is substantial tension with adherence to religion, because religion is fundamentally an exercise in denying what is obviously true.
They were primary to the consensus of an old earth, and to label them Christians is quite a stretch.
Why? I'm not familiar with Jesus taking any position on the age of the Earth. And even if he did they wouldn't be the first or last Christians to disregard some piece of dogma you see as central.
They really should get caught up in those things if they’d like to have an informed opinion on just how much all evidence actually supports their atheistic worldview.
I don't see why, given that atheism is based neither on Christianity nor on US history. Those subjects would seem to be completely irrelevant to the practice and support for atheism.
On the other hand, evolution is a scientific theory of biology, and to assess its degree of truth or falsity means inspecting and researching biological and chemical evidence, something you don't seem to possess the education to do.
I'm sorry you've been made fun of by people who know less history than you - although it seems like you know a great deal of fictitious history, frankly - but I can't understand how that's an argument against learning biology. Can you elaborate?
A relevant question would probably be — was the evolutionists superior thought process that is the subject of this thread a prevalent thing in the writings of the books I listed in message 432?
The books you listed aren't science books, they're not even about evolution. Did you think Daniel Dennett was a biologist? He's not. Sam Harris has a degree in neuroscience, which is close, but he's not an active researcher in that field.
Dawkins is a biologist, but "The God Delusion" isn't his case for evolution, it's his case for atheism.
But it can be difficult to learn when one, or a dozen, questionees get angry.
I'm not angry, but if you find your posts anger others, maybe it's because you make ludicrous and unsupported imprecations against the characters of others. Maybe you could stop doing that? Just a thought.
Why do you reject expertise in Christianity and American History?
I don't. Are you claiming expertise in those fields? I've seen you make things up about both American history and Christianity, things everyone knows are false, so can you understand why I would be dubious about your claimed expertise in those subjects?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by marc9000, posted 08-04-2010 8:18 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
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