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Author | Topic: lion vs tiger | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
bluegenes writes:
Ok, but they can never reproduce as a "species of hybrid" then, which is what I was picturing. They need a "parent species" partner to reproduce. Does this work with lions also?
The females can be fertile, and at least one has reproduced with a tiger (from memory, but I'm pretty sure).
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2505 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Huntard writes: Ok, but they can never reproduce as a "species of hybrid" then, which is what I was picturing. They need a "parent species" partner to reproduce. Does this work with lions also? I think so. And yes to the hybrid point, because the males are, I think, invariably infertile. In the wild, I don't think the two species have ever been known to reproduce. It was possible until recently in Asia, but the Asian lion is now confined to one small area in Gujarat, north-west India, (where I saw them about 17 years ago). They used to be a lot more widespread, including towards the middle-east and Europe. They are the lions of the Bible and ancient Greek stories, not the African lions. They would have encountered tigers all over India, certainly, but no-one knows what would have happened. My guess is that the solitary tigers would keep away from the prides of lions, because of the numbers.
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 827 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
bluegenes writes: Don't forget character. Lions are the only truly social cat, and the lionesses hunt in teams. Tigers are famously solitary once fully adult. You don't get a pride of tigers! Actually there are more differences than you might imagine initially. Tigers can climb trees, lions can't. Tigers like water, lions don't. As for being social - tigers can also be social but from a distance. For example, they prefer to have surrounding territories occupied by family. eg daughters, brothers etc. This could be pride behaviour in a way.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2134 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Humans on the other hand have an evolutionary distance of 15 million years to our nearest relatives the great apes. A much bigger evolutionary step I think you would agree.
I would like to see your source on this. It disagrees with what I learned in grad school by a huge amount. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2505 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Big_Al35 writes: Actually there are more differences than you might imagine initially. Tigers can climb trees, lions can't. Tigers like water, lions don't. As for being social - tigers can also be social but from a distance. For example, they prefer to have surrounding territories occupied by family. eg daughters, brothers etc. This could be pride behaviour in a way. So, in fact, quite a lot of differences. It interests me, because when paleontologists talk about stasis in the fossil record, they could be looking at two such creatures, but several million years apart. They might assume them to be the same species, but the hard body parts cannot really give an indication of how much difference there could be. I like tiger, or tigers (I don't know which is correct!). I went looking for them in India as well, and saw a few. They look great in their habitat. Their camouflage makes them a lot prettier than lions, IMO!
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2505 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Coyote writes: I would like to see your source on this.It disagrees with what I learned in grad school by a huge amount. Yes. Unless it's supposed to be the sum total down both branches.
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 827 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
Huntard writes: Ok, but they can never reproduce as a "species of hybrid" then, which is what I was picturing. They need a "parent species" partner to reproduce. Does this work with lions also? bluegenes writes: I think so. And yes to the hybrid point, because the males are, I think, invariably infertile. Not sure I understand this hybrid point. If a tiger and lion reproduce and have a daughter we have fertile offspring. The daughter and grandchildren could then go on to mate with lions again and again. Are you saying that all great great great grandsons not matter how much lion they have in them can't mate with lions? This would be your hybrid species right? Almost lion but not quite.
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 827 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
I would like to see your source on this. Wikipedia - great apes to homo sapiens. 15 million years.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2323 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Big_Al35 writes:
Yes.
Not sure I understand this hybrid point. If a tiger and lion reproduce and have a daughter we have fertile offspring. The daughter and grandchildren could then go on to mate with lions again and again.
Yes, but these chidren would be less "hybrid" and more "original lion" every time this happens.
Are you saying that all great great great grandsons not matter how much lion they have in them can't mate with lions?
Perhaps, I don't think it's ever gone that far though. Anyway, If there were a point where this was to occur, I think it will be classified as a lion, rather than a Liger or Tigon.
This would be your hybrid species right? Almost lion but not quite.
Perhaps, but I'm not sure how you'd be able to tell that one apart from an actual lion, unless you'd unravel his entire DNA and find a little tiny spec of tiger DNA. Like I said, I'm pretty sure such a creature would be clasified as a lion, not a Liger or Tigon
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Big_Al35 writes: Tigers can climb trees, lions can't. I have taken many photos of lions in acacia trees that show lions do indeed climb trees. (Lions climb trees to escape heat, spot prey and to nap) A google search will find many examples. Edited by dronester, : clarity
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Wounded King Member Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: |
Wikipedia - great apes to homo sapiens. 15 million years. That still isn't very informative. Are you basing this on twice the time since the human-chimp lineage divergence, which wikipedia gives as 5-7 million years ago? *ABE* alternatively did you perhaps misread the wiki Timeline of human evolution and think that the 15MYA date it gives for the great ape lineage diverging from that of the lesser apes was in fact the date for the homo lineage diverging from that of the great apes?*/ABE* TTFN, WK Edited by Wounded King, : Added alternative explanation.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Maybe a link would be nice. Instead of us having to search for the line in the myriad of places it could be.
Remember context is everything. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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bluegenes Member (Idle past 2505 days) Posts: 3119 From: U.K. Joined: |
Big_Al35 writes: Not sure I understand this hybrid point. I just meant that it wouldn't be possible to take a male and female half-breed and make an entire new sub-species from them which would be half-lion, half-tiger. Same with mules, because it's very rare for them to be fertile, so whenever you see one, it's actually the product of a direct cross between a horse and a donkey. Because they're actually more useful than either of the parent species as beasts of burden, people certainly would have bred them as a new sub-species if they could.
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dronestar Member Posts: 1417 From: usa Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
bluegenes writes: I like tiger, or tigers (I don't know which is correct!). I went looking for them in India as well, and saw a few. Uber cool! It is on my bucket list to see a tiger in the wild. I have friends who have lived in India who want to plan a Ranthambore National Park India safari some day. Is that the park where you saw the tigers? Any further suggestion or advise you could give? I'd prefer to spot a siberian tiger, but I don't believe there is any guide/tracker who wouldn't charge a LOT for this non-touristy service. I am off to Mongolia in September, unfortunately the range of Siberian Tigers does not quite extend to this area.
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 827 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
Wounded King writes: That still isn't very informative. Are you basing this on twice the time since the human-chimp lineage divergence, which wikipedia gives as 5-7 million years ago? Wow..a lion to tiger in 4 million years and chimpanzee to human in 7 million years. Something doesn't seem to add up.
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